Have you any evidence except what you saw in the newspapers? Did you see any you see any evidence except what you saw in the newspapers? A. I did not personally.

"Q. Do you know of anybody who did have at that time any evidence? and if so, give his name. A. The testi

mony before the Field committee discloses.

९९

"Q. So that all that you know of it you subsequently learned by the investigation before the Field committee? Then, as I understand it, at the time when Colonel Pelton went to Baltimore for the purpose of hearing a proposition on the part of the Returning Board of South Carolina to sell themselves or to give a certificate to the Tilden elec-. tors of that State, - up to that time you had no information except the rumors which you saw in the newspapers that they were being venally influenced by Republicans? A. I had no proof.

"Q. You had no evidence except what you saw in the newspapers? - that is my question. Did you have anything except what you saw in the newspapers? 4. Up to the 6th of December?

"Mr. HISCOCK. Yes, sir. A. I do not think that I had.

"Q. Then you had nothing except newspaper reports at the time when Mr. Pelton went there for that purpose? Then in your mind you must withdraw, as a justification for Pelton's conduct at that time, the statement that he was ransoming goods from thieves, or that he was fighting fire with fire? A. I did not say that he was justified, but that he thought he was.

"Q. And that was predicated upon rumors in the newspapers? 4. He was perhaps acting upon a belief in his own mind which subsequently proved to be true. I did not say that I defended his position.

"Q. I did not understand you to say that you defended his position, but I understood in part your answer to be an apology for his position? A. No; an alleviation.

"Mr. HISCOCK.-My word was 'apology.'

"Mr. HUNTON.—The only difference about that is that he is testifying and you are not.

"The WITNESS (continuing). The danger of tolerating a wrong on either side is its tendency to grow. One man does a thing because another man does it. By action and reaction abuses and wrongs grow until they become a

common practice. That was one of the reasons that impelled me to put my foot down against every approach to anything of this kind.

"Mr. HISCOCK. Now I desire to call your attention to one other despatch in this case, which came from Mr. Marble. It is on page 17, No. 34, addressed to Colonel Pelton, No. 15 Gramercy park.

Woolley asks me to say, Let forces be got together immediately, in readiness for contingencies either here or in Louisiana. Why do you not answer?

Did you ever see that despatch before it was published? A. I never did.

"Q. Of that you are clear? A. Positive.

"Q. If you had seen it, the phrase 'let forces be got together immediately for contingencies either here or in Louisiana' would have attracted your attention? might have done so.

A. It

"Q. Have you any doubt that it would? A. I do not now understand what it means.

"Q. I will ask you this question in that connection, If you know or have heard that about that time any considerable sum of money was raised by anybody connected with the National Democratic Committee? A. I have not.

"Q. Have you known, or have you learned since, that at any time after the election any considerable sum of money was raised by any Democratic parties here in the city of New York or elsewhere which might be used in those States for political purposes? A. Of that I have no personal knowledge.

"Q. Have you ever heard so? A. I cannot say that I

have.

"Q. Has any communication of that kind been made to' you ever, - that any considerable sum of money was raised by Democratic parties which might be used for political purposes? I am now speaking of the time after the election

was over.

"Mr. SPRINGER.- Are you referring to the despatches developed in the Tribune?

"Mr. HISCOCK. — I have said distinctly, after the election was over. A. I cannot undertake to say, because the committee may have been in debt.

"Q. I speak with reference to money which was raised

by any one. A. I think the committee was pretty largely

in debt.

"Q. You think it was in debt? Is that what I understand you to say? A. Yes; I think it was more or less in

debt for a year.

"Q. My question was, whether you knew of any moneys having been raised which might have been used in those States? A. I do not.

"Q. Or of any moneys having been raised during the period of time when this correspondence was going on? A. I cannot say whether that was so or not; I cannot tell you.

"Q. Does that mean to imply that you have heard something of the kind? A. It means I did not keep track of the committee.

"Q. Will you be kind enough to look on page 28 of the 'Tribune' Extra, No. 44? The last telegram here you will see is from Denmark' [Pelton] to Smith Weed:

"Last telegram here. There is undoubtedly good ground, upon which favorable decision could be had; but to be consistent and sustainable, it would and should involve electing Hampton, or else it would be involved in inconsistencies impossible to sustain.

"A. Well?

"Q. Did you ever see that telegram? A. I never did. "Q. That sentence that I have read to you is rather in the nature of a legal opinion, is it not? A. It A. It appears to be. "Q. Did you ever communicate that legal opinion to Colonel Pelton? A. I don't think I did.

"Q. Do you not think you did? Is that as strong as you want to put it? I call your attention to the fact that you simply say, 'I don't think I did.' A. I have no recollection or belief that I did.

"Q. Do you know with whom Colonel Pelton did advise as to legal questions of that sort? 4. I do not.

"Q. Did he ever advise with you as to these legal questions? A. I have no recollection of his ever doing it.

"Q. You knew all this time that Colonel Pelton was in direct communication with these gentlemen, did you not? A. What time? What gentlemen?

"Q. At the time with these gentlemen in Florida and South Carolina. A. I do not think that I knew he was in any special communication with them.

"Q. Did you not know he was receiving numerous telegrams from the visiting statesmen? A. I did not.

"Q. Not when he was living at your house, and they are directed to your house? A. They were not directed to my house; no, sir.

"Q. They were directed to your house. A. No, sir; only the fifteen Florida ones.

"Q. Did you not know that others were sent there? A. Sent where?

"Q. Sent to your house? A. I do not think they were ever sent there.

"Q. What makes you think they were not? A. I think I should have heard of it if they had been. I have already told you those telegrams were not delivered to my house, according to the best of my knowledge and belief.

"Q. How do you know? A. I live there, and it would sometimes happen that a telegram would have come within my knowledge.

"Q. But none of them ever did? A. None of them ever did, so far as I recollect or believe.

"Q. Does it not impair your certainty on that subject that you cannot tell whether or not certain telegrams were received by your private secretary which obviously came there? Might not you have had a similar lapse of memory as to these as to those directed to your private secretary? A. It might have been so as to one telegram; but I do not think a large number of telegrams could have come there without my knowing it.

"Q. What were Colonel Pelton's hours? What time did he spend at your house? A. He generally came in after I was abed and asleep, and generally went out before seeing me in the morning.

"Q. Generally before? A. Not always before.

"Q. Late to bed, and early to rise? A. Not always before; he was hardly ever at breakfast.

"Question by Mr. REED.I will ask one other question: Did there a great many telegrams come to your house, Governor Tilden? A. I cannot say.

"Q. Did a great many telegrams come to your house at Gramercy park during these days? A. My impression would be there were not a great many.

"Q. Do not you know there were a great many messengers arriving constantly from the Western Union Company

at your house? A. I cannot remember. My impression is there did not a great many arrive. Messages to me would generally come there; messages to Pelton were not delivered there, but went to the national committee room. Of course I cannot undertake to say none came to him there. I should think on election night there came a good

many.

"Mr. HUNTON. I should like to ask Governor Tilden a question. Telegram 34, on page 17, purports to be from Marble to Colonel Pelton. According to the Tribune' translation this telegram is:

"Woolley asks me to say, Let forces be got together immediately in readiness for contingencies either here or Louisiana. Why do you not answer?

"MARBLE.

Do you know of any forces, in the sense of military forces or otherwise, that were being used, or that were ready to be used, or that there was any intention at that time to use? A. No, sir; I do not.

"Q. You knew nothing about forces in that sense? A. No, sir; I thought it meant influence, friends.

"Q. You state your belief that the returning boards in one or more States were purchased. You had information that led you to believe, and if true would convince you, that at least one of those boards offered itself for sale to the Democratic side. A. It was not sold to the Democratic side; and is not the conclusion legitimate and proper that if not purchased by one side it was by the other?

"Mr. REED.-Oh! oh! oh! I'll ask for the ruling of the chairman on that question.

"Mr. TILDEN. That is a matter of logic.

"The CHAIRMAN (laughingly to Mr. Reed).- Do you expect the Chair to rule out a question he has himself asked?

"Mr. REED. - Yes, sir; that one, with confidence. "The CHAIRMAN. Well, he said it is a question of logic; and as that is not a matter of investigation, I will rule out both question and answer. That is all, Governor Tilden.”

At the conclusion of Mr. Tilden's examination, the committee went into executive session, when they decided to adjourn and return that evening to Washington.