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Not only the religions, but also the traditional worship of ancestors has been prohibited in mainland China.
I am sorry. There is some correction in the translation. I said "not only party members but party officials.” That was not correct. It should be "not only party members but also government officials” were not permitted any sort of religious belief.
Mr. Zion. What would happen to these people who insisted upon conducting religious services, either conducting them or attending them? Was there any special treatment handed out to people who still believed they should exercise their rights of free religious practice?
Mr. WU SHU-JEN. They would be subject to criticism, the so-called struggle rallies; that is to be criticized before a mass rally.
Mr. ZION. In other words, they would be held up to ridicule; is that what you are saying?
Mr. WU SHU-JEN. Not only ridicule but formal criticism in meetings and rallies. If they still refuse to heed this kind of warning, they would be sent for labor reform.
Mr. Zion. Is this a forced labor camp? Mr. WU SHU-JEN. Forced labor, in the labor camps. Mr. Zion. In your own experience, are you familiar with any forced labor camps in mainland China?
Mr. Wu SHU-JEN. There are four kinds of forced labor camps in mainland China.
The first and the best known is the so-called labor reform camp. That includes all those criminals sentenced to hard labor by the courts.
Then there is the educational labor for those who are not sentenced by the courts. In other words, their cases did not go through the courts. They are sent to those education-through-labor camps.
Mr. ZION. Are you saying people were sentenced to forced labor camps, even though they were not sentenced as a result of an action by a court? Mr. WU SHU-JEN. I did not get your question.
Mr. Zion. You mean some people were sentenced to forced labor camps, even though there is no action by a court; is that correct?
Mr. WU SHU-JEN. That is correct.
Mr. WU SHU-JEN. There are two kinds. For those in labor reform camps, those were criminals who had been sentenced by the courts. Then there is another kind called education through labor; those are minor lawbreakers who did not have their cases go through the courts.
Mr. Zion. If it did not go through the court, who sentenced them? Mr. WU SHU-JEN. The party committee.
Mr. Zion. The party committee, then, has the capacity to sentence people to forced labor without action by the courts; is that correct?
Mr. WU SHU-JEN. That is correct.
Either the party committee or the local party public security bureaus.
Mr. Zion. Is the local public security bureau under the control of the party?
Mr. Wu SHU-JEN. That is correct. They would go to the educationthrough-labor camps.
The third kind is so-called organized labor. Those are people sent there solely by the public security department. It decides who should
Mr. Zion. How do these labor camps-you say there are several classes of them, some more severe than others—how do the least severe of the labor camps compare to the regular communes where people apparently voluntarily work?
Mr. Wo SHU-JEN. The most mild form of labor camp is almost the same as the communes.
Mr. Zion. In other words, being sentenced to a labor camp is no different from the regular communes where noncriminals are working; is that correct?
Mr. WU SHU-JEN. It differs in that the labor reform is only temporary. You are sent there to work alone while, on the other hand, in a commune, you are allowed to work together with your family. You can still have your family life. That is the only difference.
Mr. Zion. But the food that is permitted and the working conditions, then, are the same for those who are permitted to work as contrasted to those who are forced to work?
Mr. WU SHU-JEN. Yes, that is correct. Mr. Zion. Do you know of any products that are made in forced labor camps in mainland China that might be exported to the free world?
Mr. WU SHU-JEN. Excuse me, Congressman. I have something to add to the answer I just gave about the labor camps.
As far as I know, in Kwangtung Province alone, there are at least 56 large-scale labor camps under the direction, jurisdiction, of the provincial government. The largest one is at a place called Yingteh, in which as many as 120,000 people were undergoing labor reform.
Mr. ZION. 120,000 in one camp?
Mr. Zion. You say it was in Kwangtung Province. Where is Kwangtung Province ?
Mr. WU SHU-JEN. Bordering Hong Kong in southeast China.
Mr. Zion. I remember being there. As I recall, we liberated a Catholic missionary who had been hiding in the hills from the Japanese.
Mr. WU SHU-JEN. That was in Canton. Canton is the capital of Kwangtung Province.
Mr. ZION. How would his treatment under Mao compare with that under the Japanese occupants?
Mr. WU SHU-JEN. When Japan invaded China, I was too young, so I cannot give you the answer.
Mr. Zion. I asked you if you knew of any products imported into the free world that were made under forced labor conditions.
Mr. WU SHU-JEN. I myself know at least four products made in those labor camps being exported to the Western world.
One is Labor brand mechanical tools.
Mr. Zion. You mentioned forced labor for those that disagree with the party policies.
How about a real counterrevolutionary, someone that not only objects to a lack of religious freedom, but who actively opposes the feeling of the party in power? What happens to them?
Mr. WU SHU-JEN. Their fate would be much worse. They would be put in a small cell in the ordinary jail—not in the labor camps, where you still can move around—for a long period of time. I knew of some of those so-called counterrevolutionists who have been put in a cell for so long that they lost their eyesight or they became paralyzed.
Mr. ZioN. Did you see or witness or know of any executions as a result of counterrevolutionary activities?
Mr. WU SHU-JEN. Several times. Once I saw a mass execution in which as many as 248 persons were executed within a few hours, within the same day. There were so many to be executed that the soldiers had to use machineguns, and after those victims were mowed down, the soldiers shot each one again in the head with a handgun.
Mr. ZION. 248 executed in 1 day for what crimes?
Mr. Zion. What type of activity would give one the title of counterrevolutionary?
Mr. Wu SHU-JEN. They were usually leaders of a robbery of graneries or they beat up a communist cadre, or they led protests against the government, or they were accused of being foreign spies, or other subversive elements, or those who engaged in serious black-marketeering activities. They were so-called counterrevolutionaries.
Mr. ZION. Just leading a protest, then, a protest against the party in power, the Communist Party in this instance, was serious enough to cause execution?
Mr. Wu Shu-JEN. Yes. Leading a protest is considered a very serious crime in mainland China, and the leader, especially, is considered a very serious criminal, and his only fate is to be executed.
Mr. Zion. Thank you, gentlemen. I have no further questions, Mr. Counsel.
Mr. SCHULTZ. Mr. Wu, I know that you have appeared at some 200 lectures across the country in the last month or so, sponsored by the Committee for a Free China.
I would assume, in addressing college and high school students, you have answered some rather penetrating questions. I wonder if you could compare for us the freedom and, perhaps, right to dissent exercised by our college and high school students, as opposed to the students on mainland China.
[At this point Mr. Zion left the hearing room.]
Mr. Wu SHU-JEN. It is very hard for me to do that, because there is no freedom at all in mainland schools, while, on the other hand, there is so much freedom here, sometimes too much freedom in the schools in the United States.
I will give you a concrete example which I encountered in Seattle while I was making a speech in a university. An American professor stood
and said, "I know it is a fact that many people are starved to death in mainland China, but Mao Tse-tung is not to be held responsible for that, but the American Government should be responsible for that, because the American Government took part in the Vietnam war.”
And this is what I replied. I said, "If you ask about freedom in mainland China or freedom here—now, you stand up and make this absurd accusation of the U.S. Government. That is freedom of speech.
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If you were a professor in a mainland Chinese school, that would be a serious crime, and within 3 minutes you would be arrested and thrown into jail;" and that shut up this professor.
Mr. SCHULTZ. I know that the Chinese Communist Party's Constitution, which was written, and I believe ratified, with the Ninth Congress, listed Lin Piao as the successor to Mao Tse-tung. Piao has been officially described as dead. Who is the now apparent successor to Mao, if there is one ?
Mr. Wu SHU-JEN. I think Mao has already learned his lesson. It is highly unlikely that he will appoint another successor. It is my view that after Mao dies, there would emerge a collective leadership which may include Mao's wife, Chiang Ching, and Chou En-lai and others, but I believe that after a short period of time, another power struggle, even fiercer than the Cultural Revolution, would erupt within this leadership, and even the People's Liberation Army will be directly involved.
[At this point Mr. Guyer returned to the hearing room.] Mr. Wu SHU-JEN. And the leaders will fight it out among themselves.
Mr. SCHULTZ. Just as a point of information, I heard just this morning on the radio that the Communist Party of China was anticipating their Tenth Congress next month.
In connection with that, Mr. Wu, would you tell us what the relationship between the army and the Communist Party in China is, and how will they be compatible with the continuation of the Government after Mao's demise ?
Mr. Wu SHU-JEN. There are different factions in the party, and likewise, there are different opposing factions in the army. That is why I said the power struggle will continue within the party, within the army, and also between the party and the army. I do not know whether they will be able to convene this Tenth Party Congress next month or in a few months, because that party congress is already long overdue, but, since Mao is trying to call this party congress within a short period of time, apparently he is confident that he has already solved this conflict between the party and the army, which was the only reason that prevented them from calling this party congress at an earlier date.
But if you ask me my opinion of that, Mao has not solved this contradiction between the party and the army, and that is the most dangerous hidden worry.
Mr. Schultz. You have described for us the control by the Communist Party over the people of mainland China. Would you tell us if the law allows for the human dignity of the individual and what ability there is for the Chinese to get rid of his frustrations or let off steam?
If he cannot demonstrate and he cannot complain about the government, what chance do they have to let off steam and maintain their own human dignity?
Mr. Wu SHU-JEN. The so-called Cultural Revolution—the great turmoil during the Cultural Revolution is one form of the mainland people letting off steam. It gave them a chance to rise up against the party or government officials who long had oppressed them. Also, they
fought with their antagonists, and I think that is one form, if you ask me. Of course, Mao and Chiang created this Cultural Revolution, but he succeeded in making this great turmoil because the mainland people had all those frustrations, all that steam as you call it, to be let out.
Mr. Schultz. This was a very destructive force and divisive among the people themselves?
Mr. Wu Shu-JEN. Yes, it was destructive, but still the people grabbed the chance to show their frustration, to vent their long suppressed emotions.
Mr. Schultz. Would you comment briefly on the extent to which private ownership of property is allowed in mainland China and, perhaps, the Chinese attitude with relation to government-owned property?
Mr. WU SHU-JEN. Small ownership, like personal belongings, your dresses, your radio, or your fountain pen, that is allowed. But the ownership of large things like houses, factories, or production tools, those have long been abolished. All those things now belong to the state.
Mr. SCHULTZ. What is the attitude of the Chinese people toward the Government for not being able to own property?
Mr. Wu SHU-JEN. The communists have never relaxed in their political indoctrination of the people. I think that is the way they try to counteract the opposition of the mainland people.
Mr. Schultz. In other words, they suppress the antagonism? Mr. Wu SHU-JEN. To brainwash with political indoctrination.
Mr. SCHULTZ. If I could go back for a minute, Mr. Wu, you mentioned there were 56 labor camps in Kwangtung Province. Do you know whether or not there are similar camps in other parts of mainland China, and could you give us an educated guess as to how many?
Mr. WU SHU-JEN. It is very hard for me to guess, even come close to the accurate number of labor camps in the whole of mainland China, but as far as I know, the labor camps are scattered all around, all throughout the mainland. Especially in those remote provinces like Tsing Hai, Sin Kiang, Heilung Kiang, Kweichow, and even in Peking and Shanghai, there are many labor camps. Especially in the two provinces of Tsing Hai and Kweichow there are labor camps much larger in scale or in number of criminals undergoing labor reform than in Kwangtung.
Mr. Schultz. Could you estimate how many people are incarcerated in these various labor camps around the country?
Mr. WU SHU-JEN. I can only give you the figures of Kwangtung Province. Those still in the labor camps and those who have undergone labor reform, exceed 4 million in Kwangtung Province aloneabout one-tenth of the total population of that province.
Mr. GUYER. First, I want to apologize. We have been going back and forth to a couple of different committees. This morning Foreign Affairs is holding a rather important committee meeting on troop strength in Europe, so some of us have had to go back and forth. I missed much of the testimony. I am very sorry about that.
I would like to ask first a question that probably should have been asked the early part of the hearing. How was Mr. Wu's trip arranged? Who sponsored his coming here?