Sir, I believe that this evidences the desire on behalf of the city, and the citizens, by their enactment of this new charter, with these provisions, that the city will have full power to cooperate with other branches of our wonderful government to the benefit of all concerned. I think that that is about all.

Senator BARTLETT. The charter will be accepted for the files, and the sections you quoted

Mr. HOSTETLER. Chapter IX, sir.

Senator BARTLETT. Will be inserted into the record.

We appreciate your statement. The matter to which you specifically directed your attention will receive the attention of the committee. I don't need to tell you because you already know, that it is tremendously difficult to go back, but I can guarantee you that this will be brought to the attention of the committee.

Just so there will be no possible bit of misunderstanding-although I think that you made it altogether clear-it was not the opposition of the Railroad, nor yet of the Interior Department, which resulted in the failure of passage of the bill to reimburse Anchorage for firefighting. Other considerations were involved.

Mr. HOSTETLER. I understand that very well, Senator. We have always received the utmost cooperation from the administration of the Railroad on these problems; unfortunately their hands have been tied, to date, on some of them.

Senator BARTLETT. Yes, we ran afoul of the fact that it was discovered that this wasn't a local situation, but one which, in one form or another, had occurred and reoccurred, in many places; and even so, except for an unfortunate event, we might have put this bill through.

Thank you very much for your testimony.

Mr. STRANDBERG. I want to thank you for the opportunity to testify.
Senator BARTLETT. Thank you, Harold Strandberg.
Mr. McDonald, of the Order of Railroad Telegraphers.

Mr. McDONALD. First, I would like to apologize to the chairman, for not having a prepared statement here that I am going to testify on, but

Senator BARTLETT. You don't need to apologize. We probably will be much better instructed if you just deliver from the cuff. Mr. McDONALD. Thank you.

STATEMENT OF RAYMOND MCDONALD, AGENT, ALASKA RAILROAD AT CURRY, ALASKA

My name is Raymond McDonald, Curry, Alaska, and I am the agent for the Alaska Railroad at Curry, Alaska, at the present time; also general chairman of the Order of Railroad Telegraphers; and I am speaking, this afternoon, also for the American Train Dispatchers Association, the Brotherhood of Railroad Carmen of America, the American Federation of Government Employees, the International Association of Machinists & Boilermakers.

We would like to go on record as being for Senate bill 2514, the incorporation bill, with a few exceptions.

51709-61 -12

On page 5, line 12 and line 13, strike out "to establish an efficiency or merit rating system."

We on the Alaska Railroad, as well as on the Alaska Railroad outside, have a seniority system, and this management is protected by a clause which states if you cannot qualify with 30 days, or 60 days, that you will give up the position and revert back to the extra board, or to the former position.

On page 5, lines 14, 15, and 16, I would-I will pass that right now. It is a question that I wish to ask, and I will ask the questions at the end of this if you don't mind.

Page 5, lines 17 through 20, "Establish rules governing promotion, demotion, retention, discharge, layoff, recall, and seniority of employees, settlement of grievances and disputes and related personnel policies.'

On that we would like to go on record that we would prefer to have the grievances and disputes referred to the National Labor Adjustment Board, the Third Division, for settlement, when we cannot settle on a local basis.

On line 6, between lines 3 and 4 excuse me, page 6, between lines 3 and 4, we would like a clause to be inserted requiring that the Alaska Railroad Company be required to recognize and to follow the present agreements with recognized unions until such time as new agreements are negotiated.

The way the bill stands, it states that the Company may negotiate with unions but provides no interim consideration; in other words, when incorporation would take over, our present union agreements would be out, and we would like those to continue on until such time as new ones, if necessary, would be negotiated.

Page 14, line 9, the words that would be lines 9 and 10-“The Company shall also pay the employers' cost of employers' insurance, medical". We have our own medical plan at the present time and we would like that to stand, as is.

Senator BARTLETT. Can I interrupt you right there, Mr. McDonald? Mr. McDONALD. Yes, sir.

Senator BARTLETT. To ask you if this determination has been made after the recent passage of a new health insurance plan for Government employees and an opportunity for you to evaluate that?

Mr. McDONALD. No; that was made before the passage of that. We were unaware, up to this time, that that had passed.

Senator BARTLETT. You will be given permission to file a supplementary statement, if you care to do so, regarding this particular recommendation.

Mr. McDONALD. Thank you.

Mr. BAYNTON. May I ask a question?

Senator BARTLETT. You may.

Mr. BAYNTON. Mr. McDonald, you just mentioned the word "medical" on line 10, page 14.

You also stated that you had your own

medical plan, I believe, and that you wanted that to stand.

Mr. McDONALD. That is right.

Mr. BAYNTON. For the record, do you want the word "medical" out of the bill, or in the bill, or what?

Mr. McDONALD. "Medical" out-or excluded from the bill.
Mr. BAYNTON. All right. Thank you.

Mr. McDONALD. On page 8-excuse me for going back.
Senator BARTLETT. That is all right.

Mr. McDONALD. Section 6, "With respect to selection of a board of directors" from line 5 through line 14, our group feels that this is important in promoting employee interest in the welfare of the company, and loyalty to the company. It is suggested that the section be revised to read that:

The management of the company shall be vested in a Board of Directors consisting of seven members, four of whom shall be appointed by the Secretary of the Interior, two of whom shall be selected by agreement of the recognized unions representing employees of the company, the seventh member to be selected by the first six members. No more than two members of the Board will be appointed or selected who have not had actual railroad experience.

And on line 20, beginning with the next to the last word concerning Board meetings:

Once more we stress our opinion that distance obscures conditions and dims the views.

This portion should read:

The Board should meet at least quarterly, at least two of which meetings each calendar year shall be held in Alaska.

Senator BARTLETT. Now, just a moment. You recommended the word "two" to be substituted for the word "one"?

Mr. McDONALD. That's right.

Senator BARTLETT. I did not get, Mr. McDonald, I am sorry to say, your recommendation pertaining to the first paragraph in section 6. Mr. McDONALD. "Promoting" or "The management of the company shall be vested"?

Senator BARTLETT. Yes.

Mr. McDONALD. "*** in a Board of Directors, consisting of seven members" that is as stated, except that "four of whom shall be appointed by the Secretary of the Interior; and two of whom shall be selected by agreement of the recognized unions representing the employees of the company, and the seventh member to be selected by the first six members."

Senator BARTLETT. Now, wait a minute. Let me get this straight. We have, in the bill as drafted, section 6 which states:

The Board of Directors shall consist of seven members, all of those seven members are to be appointed by the Secretary of the Interior, and they are to serve at his pleasure, with no fixed term; four members of that seven-member Board shall be officers and employees of the United States; one of those four may be the general manager of the Railroad Company, but there is no requirement that he be designated; and then three, the remaining three members of the Board are so-called public members, and two of them are required to have had experience in the operation and management of railroads.

Now, you would change that, just how?

Mr. McDONALD. That, where it says "four members of the Board shall be appointed"

Four members of the Board shall be officers and employees of the United States of whom one may, at the discretion of the Secretary, be the General Manager of the Company.

That-I am sorry

Senator BARTLETT. Is this it, Mr. McDonald

Mr. McDONALD. I am sorry. Instead of the-what we wanted was the appointment.

The management of the Company shall be vested in a Board of Directors, consisting of seven members

that is as the bill is now written.

appointed by the Secretary of the Interior.

We wish the Secretary of the Interior to appoint four of the members, and the employees' unions representing the Company to appoint two members of the Board and then the seventh member be appointed by the other six members.

Senator BARTLETT. Now, would you have the two members to be appointed by the union groups, officers and employees of the United States, public members; or wouldn't it matter, so far as your recommendation is concerned, whether they were public officials, or not? Mr. McDONALD. As long as they had railroad experience

Senator BARTLETT. And you would still hold the seven-man board? Mr. McDONALD. That's right.

Senator BARTLETT. Thank you. I think that that is clear.

Mr. McDONALD. I believe that that is all of my testimony there, but I have some questions that I would like to bring up, if I could, at this time.

Senator BARTLETT. Well, Mr. McDonald, let me say this: You may ask those questions, and I hope that you do; and none of us, naturally, will seek to answer them, but they will be on the record, for later consideration, study, and for presentation in Washington, at later hearings; we will make every effort to ask those questions of those technically proficient in this subject.

Mr. McDONALD. Thank you.

First, under "Incorporation," would our present annual and sick leave policy rules be changed? And,

Second, will the incorporation-will the company promote personnel from within the organization, rather than hire from out of State? And the meaning there is, if they have qualified men on the railroad, shall they move up to promotions, rather than hiring from out of State for these promotions?

Third, what will be the effect of the incorporation upon our present retirement plan and policy?

Will it still be the Government retirement, under the Interstate Commerce Commission, or will it be changed to railroad retirement as the stateside railroads have?

I believe that is all, that I have, at this time.

Senator BARTLETT. Those questions will be put later. And, we hope, answered.

One question from me to you, now:

What is your recommendation regarding retirement?

Mr. McDONALD. Speaking for the Order of Railroad Telegraphers, I have not consulted the others on this question: I prefer that it stay as it is.

Senator BARTLETT. Mr. McDonald, I urge upon you that your organization study as promptly as possible, this new Government health plan, because it might possibly alter your conclusions as to medical care and associated features.

Mr. McDONALD. I believe, on that matter, Senator, there is a clause in our last negotiations which states that at any time if the Government should come up with a health insurance plan, that was equal to or better than we now had, we would adopt it.

Senator BARTLETT. If you will send on a written statement on that, later, to the Senate Interstate and Foreign Commerce Committee; and also, I should suggest, Mr. Perley, to the House committee?

Mr. PERLEY. The House Committee on Interstate and Foreign Commerce.

Senator BARTLETT. And write the first letter addressed to the attention of Mr. Frank Barton; and the House letter to

Mr. PERLEY. Dr. Andrew Stevenson.

Senator BARTLETT. Thank you, Mr. McDonald.
Mr. McDONALD. Thank you.

Senator BARTLETT. Mr. O'Neil.

Mr. O'NEIL. Mr. Chairman. Dennis O'Neil.

Senator BARTLETT. Glad to have you here, Dennie.
Mr. O'NEIL. Dennis E. O'Neil, Anchorage, Alaska.
Senator BARTLETT. Give your mailing address, please.
Mr. O'NEIL. 1416 G Street.

STATEMENT OF DENNIS O'NEIL, REPRESENTING THE BROTHERHOOD OF LOCOMOTIVE FIREMEN AND ENGINEMEN AND THE BROTHERHOOD OF RAILROAD TRAINMEN, ANCHORAGE, ALASKA

Mr. Chairman, I represent the Brotherhood of Locomotive Firemen and Enginemen, and also the Brotherhood of Railroad Trainmen, both located in Anchorage, Alaska.

1. We are highly in favor of incorporating the Alaska Railroadwith the exception of section 10, paragraph (a).

The Alaska Railroad is a common carrier and we feel it should be required to adhere to the practices and policies of the railroad industry as a whole.

2. Senate bill 2514 states in part, section 4, paragraph (g) :

"In order to permit to the extent practicable the adoption by the Company of the personnel policies and practices of the railroad industries."

We feel that section 10, paragraph (a) does not carry out the expressed intent of section 4, paragraph (g). Section 10, paragraph (a) specifically applies only to the train and enginemen of the Alaska Railroad while others are exempt from section 23 of the act of March 28, 1934, by section 4, paragraph (g) part (v) of Senate bill 2514.

Section 10, paragraph (a) is a direct opposite of anything found in the railroad industry and it destroys the intent of placing the Alaska Railroad on a comparable basis with the railroad industry.

Therefore, we respectfully request section 10, paragraph (a) be deleted in its entirety and all the employees be placed on an equal basis by being exempt from section 23 of the act of March 28, 1934. If this were done, we would have no objection to Senate bill 2514. If not, we wish to go on record as opposing Senate bill 2514, as in its present form it does not carry out its objective, or stated intent.

Senator BARTLETT. Does that conclude your testimony?

Mr. O'NEIL. That is it.

Senator BARTLETT. Thank you, Dennie, I don't know, but I think that we should know, by and by, why section 10 (a) was placed in the bill; it seems to me to be an administrative matter that more properly could be under the control of the Board of Directors instead of being