As soon as I get through with the map here, then I will return to my chair, if I may.

We have in Alaska the largest area in the National Park System. We have, for instance, Katmai, with approximately 2,700,000 acres. We have Glacier Bay, with 2,300,000 acres. We have Mount McKinley, with 1,900,000 acres. I have given that in round figures. Then we have Old Kasaan, which is down here [indicating], with only 38 acres; and Sitka, with 54 acres. Each one of these parks or monuments was established for a particular purpose.

I would like to start with the largest one first, and that is Katmai. I was up in Alaska year before last, and I visited each one of these areas. I am quite convinced that there is need for adjustment of boundary lines in Katmai, and that report is in draft form now. We have been working on it since last spring.

We also had another party up there this summer, combined Navy, Army, Geological Survey, university, and Park Service people, making a study of the area from the scientific standpoint due to the volcanic eruptions there last winter. That is better known to a lot of people as the Valley of Ten Thousand Smokes.

It is true that the smokes more or less died down until last year's eruption, when we got plenty of smokes again, but the vast lava beds in here of the old eruptions which caused this area to be established are still there. They are spectacular in their formation. They are absolutely denuded of vegetation.

Ben, will you pass some of the pictures you have, together with the topographic map, so the Senator can see the detailed topography. This boundary line was laid out more or less in straight lines at the time of its establishment. It was established in, I think, 1917.

Senator CORDON. I take it the area has not been surveyed by the rectangular survey system.

Mr. WIRTH. There has not been a detailed survey. Here is a topographical map of the area. This is the Valley of Ten Thousand Smokes. The lava has flowed all the way down there [indicating]. This line cuts right straight across the topo. It cuts across this valley. It slides across this mountain. It ought to be adjusted.

Senator CORDON. May I inquire whether the lava in the Valley of Ten Thousand Smokes is the same as the lava in the nearly 700,000 other acres within the area.

Mr. WIRTH. In Katmai National Monument, there is vegetation on 2 percent of the total area, or 55,000 acres of the Katmai National Monument has forest growth on it, timber on it. How much of that is merchantable, I do not know. My offhand guess is that it wouldn't justify going in and taking it out.

Senator CORDON. The point I am trying to make, Mr. Wirth, is this: Let us assume there were 5 million more acres surrounding the exterior boundaries there-I take it this is a national monument.

Mr. WIRTH. This is a national monument, yes.

Senator CORDON. Do you feel that the other 5 million acres of the same kind of spectacular area surrounding this particular tract ought to be included within a national monument because they are the same as the area within it

Mr. WIRTH. No, sir, under no circumstances.

Senator CORDON. Following that, could we not reach the logical conclusion that if there be some values here to people other than the visual values or values from the scientific standpoint, we could apply the same reasoning to the area that we have here and take a segment that is peculiarly representative of your formations and have your volcanic conditions and make that a monument and release all the balance, even though it be spectacular?

Mr. WIRTH. Sir, that is what we have here at the present time, with the minor adjustments here, only a unit of the volcanic formation that extends all the way down the Aleutians. This is the beginning of the Aleutians. The scenic and scientific values were the basis of establishing this; and there is a byproduct to the establishment, which is tourist travel. This is just beginning to hit tourist travel. We have a camp established here, and the only way in is by air. There is no other use that I know of, and I have made that statement. What use would you put this area to if you eliminated it?

Senator CORDON. Let us stop there for a moment. I cannot answer that question. We are just going to have to leave a question mark at the end of that for a moment.

Mr. WIRTH. I did not mean to ask a question.

Senator CORDON. That is all right. If there be determined to be some uses that you do not know and I do not know anything about, then might we not reduce this area, most advisedly, in the interests of the people of Alaska so as to exclude any areas where those uses are found to exist?

Mr. WIRTH. That is correct. There is a bill in Congress now, sir. I am sure the Delegate will recall this. A bill has passed the House and I think it is in the Senate now and a report has come in, whereby the volcanic ash-when this mountain exploded here, it threw ash all over the country. They want some of this ash to make cement blocks, for construction. There is a bill to allow use of the pumice, all they need to obtain that material so they can go ahead and use it for building materials.

Senator CORDON. What area is included within that bill, how many acres? Do you recall the acreage, Ben?

Mr. THOMPSON. It is along Shelikof Strait. There isn't any

acreage.

Mr. WIRTH. It is left up to discretion. It would take the pumice, whatever pumice was necessary for that particular purpose.

Also, if the canning industry comes in again, there are several cannery locations along there which are there on permit. All they need is a waterfront and a bay to come in and bring in their salmon and process them and ship them.

Senator CORDON. We have the thought of creating a State up there, and we would like to hope that the people there will have an opportunity to own the dirt they are using, to have title to their land, to have their roots planted in Alaska so that they are interested in Alaska, so they will become part and parcel of Alaska. That is what this committee has its sights set on.

Mr. WIRTH. Senator, you know in your own State we have national parks-Crater Lake, for instance.

Senator CORDON. We tried to get Diamond Lake in, too, and you did not do it.

Mr. WIRTH. I do not think that you or the people in the State would stand for a minute for the abolishment of Crater Lake National Park. I think it has a value and is an asset to the State.

Senator CORDON. I agree with that. It should be reserved in some form, and a national park, from our viewpoint, seems to be the cheapest. It costs us less taxes. We prefer to have it remain as a national park. I have no thought of completely eliminating whatever portion of this ought to be retained, but I would like to think that maybe if it could not be the size of Crater Lake National Park, it could be 4 times the size or maybe we could make it 10 times the size, and we could release the other if the other has any value.

Mr. WIRTH. There is only one thing before us. There is a letter on the way to Delegate Bartlett. It is up in the Secretary's Office now for signature. There is only one case that has come to our attention, and I think it is the only one in Alaska where there is any request for reduction in the area. That has reference to this section of the park [indicating]. This is Naknek Lake. They want some land released around here. We think that can be done.

Senator CORDON. Released for what purpose?

Mr. WIRTH. They want to go hunting and trapping.
Senator CORDON. That is the natives?

Mr. WIRTH. The local people.

Delegate BARTLETT. Principally natives.

Mr. WIRTH. Yes. But up in here, I don't know of any use that they could make of it, and I think we ought to keep it in one complete unit-there are hundreds of square miles of that stuff all the way down the Aleutian Islands-as long as they use what they can, which they continue to do, which is mostly for fishing and the ash there, that we know of so far. There has been prospecting all through that country, and nothing that I know of has been reported, and nobody has attempted to file on it.

What we are trying to do is to get the Alaskans to establish the concession type of operation there so they can get the revenue of people coming into the area as we do in all national parks. It is all run by private enterprise. The only part we play is to preserve those areas so that you will not destroy the thing that you come to see. I am not talking about this boundary line, sir, or whether Congress wants to wipe them out. I am in the park business. That is my line. I am trying to talk about those particular values.

I am going to bring before your Appropriations Committee at the proper time some additional figures on the economic value, although I know you have some doubts on the economic values from your questions the last time we were before the committee.

Senator CORDON. I am openminded, Mr. Wirth.

Mr. WIRTH. Whether we take credit for it or not, there were 46 million people who visited our parks last year. Those are conservative figures, not my figures but the conservative figures of my statisticians, who won't let me use the figures I think I should. They cut me down from 4 billion to 2 billion, and I have accepted that.

Senator CORDON. That was just a minor difference of opinion. Mr. WIRTH. The 46 million people who visited the parks, in our opinion, generated about $2 billion worth of business. According to the Treasury, the tax on that runs 29 cents on every dollar that was spent. Twenty-one and a half cents of that comes to the Federal

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Government in the form of taxes. That means that the travelers in the parks returned to the Federal Treasury in round numbers around $400 million.

Senator CORDON. Do you mean to say we can justify our parks as an ex officio addition to the tax-collecting service of the Government? Mr. WIRTH. They collect the tax without any additional charge. It is all done on forms which are sent to them for a very minor charge. It is a business-stimulating thing. I think, sir, if I may say so, that one of the big future assets and businesses of Alaska is going to be its recreational and scenic value. You have some of the grandest scenery in Alaska. It is awfully hard to pick out the best.

We have five areas now which we are administering. We think there are other areas which the State or Territory should set aside for their own use. Wrangell Mountain and others ought to be set aside as State parks.

I might also say that the parks are for the benefit of the individual, the enjoyment they get out of it, and the parks belong to all the people. Nevertheless, there is that economic value there that you can't lose track of.

One recent example comes to my mind. Down in the Everglades, where we propose to make a little extension, the people want that extension because they are catering to the tourist trade on the west side of the park, in the town of Everglades, and they can't get the commercial travel agencies to approve that in their book for roundtrip or package tours until it is in the national park because they say then we have something to say, because the quality of the park is such and the standards are such that it has a real advertising and sales value in the travel industry.

Just as sure as shooting, I know that if we release this area or if in its wisdom the Congress decides to turn it over to the State, which they have a right to do, you will retain it as a receation area and a park area, but will lose the tag that you have on the commercial value of the national park. The boundary line should be adjusted, sir, I grant you that.

Senator CORDON. Let us assume that in the ordinary course of matters you would adjust the boundary line. If this Congress passes the appropriate legislation and the Territory of Alaska becomes a State, there is hardly any question but that the new State will have in its favor a floating grant within the area of the State, a right to select land. We are hoping that we can get enough information and acquire enough knowledge and have ourselves collectively enough wisdom so that we can use the best language possible to see that that grant right is utilized in the soundest way. That is what we want to do.

It may well be that the people of the new State may differ from the Park Service with respect to values within this area. They may feel that there are values there.

This committee, I am sure, would feel that if there are such values the State should have them to the extent that they can have them and still retain such portion of the area as is needed to exemplify its most outstanding scenic and geologic characteristics. We would like to have your help in that respect.

Senator SMATHERS. How many acres do we have in the Everglades National Park?

Mr. WIRTH. I was just going to say, Mr. Chairman, that Senator Smathers, of Florida, comes from a State that went to the trouble of establishing a national park down there, and they gave us 800,000 acres and $2 million to buy the rest of the land to round it out, which shows that the State of Florida believes that there is some value to national-park areas.

Senator SMATHERS. That is right. I must say that I have always recognized Mr. Wirth's desire to extend, reach out, and take in a little more acreage insofar as that park is concerned, some of which we have agreed with and some of which we have not.

Mr. WIRTH. I would like to repeat, as you gave me permission to do, that I have brought here pictures of the areas, and here is a topo map which shows how rugged the country is. I wish to state that there is a bill before Congress now which would give us authority to allow them to take pumice off the monument for cinder-brick purposes, which we want to do. There is also before us the possibility of boundary changes. There is a request from the local people to make some change up here near Naknek Lake.

Senator JACKSON. Would you not be establishing an unusual precedent if you allowed them to take pumice from a national monument? Mr. WIRTH. We are cutting that section out.

Senator JACKSON. They would not be taking it from the monument? You are excluding that area from the monument?

Mr. WIRTH. That is right.

(NOTE.-Mr. Wirth later said that he wished to correct this statement, that the bill would authorize the removal of pumice but would not remove lands from the monument.)

Senator CORDON. Let us get that clear, please. I understood from the Delegate that this operation was to be done under a permit without change in boundaries.

Mr. WIRTH. I have the bill right here.

For the purpose of aiding the development of building materials essential to Alaska, the Secretary of the Interior is authorized in his discretion for a period of fifteen years from the date of approval of this Act. * * *

That is from H. R. 1529. I might add, however, in the basic legislation for Mount McKinley

Senator JACKSON. That is from within the monument?

Mr. WIRTH. Yes. But in Mount McKinley and in Glacier Bay there is authorization which permits prospecting and, if minerals are found, the removal of such under such special regulations as the Secretary may prescribe. That is another area in Alaska. Mining is permitted in Mount McKinley and Glacier Bay.

Senator SMATHERS. What makes these smokes? What are theyvolcanoes?

Mr. WIRTH. The top of Katmai Mountain blew up like Crater Lake and poured this lava down through the valleys. For years they smoked, steamed, hot lava. They gradually cooled off. You see pictures of the lava beds there now which have cooled off.

This last winter they had another eruption. Most of those eruptions came out of the sides of the formations rather than the top. The top of Katmai is a great deal like Crater Lake, Senator, with the exception that it is not accessible, and at a higher altitude.

Senator CORDON. I notice you have even named it "Crater Lake." Mr. WIRTH. Crater Lake.