Mr. RHODE. They have to a limited degree, and it has not been particularly successful but it has been attempted. Senator CORDON. The point is: Do they have a right to? Mr. RHODE. Yes, under permit they can graze sheep. Senator CORDON. They can get a permit and if they get one, they can graze sheep there? Mr. RHODE. It is not too hard to get the permit. They only need to apply for it, and there is no great rush of applications. It is a very isolated area. Senator CORDON. Someone lives up in my country that raised sheep out on those islands. Bishop, I think, is the name. Senator JACKSON. Someone from Utah had a claim against the Government in the last war. The military moved in and cut him off, and he had to kill all of his sheep. He had a claim against the Government and, I believe, it was in the Aleutian chain. Delegate BARTLETT. That was in the chain, yes. Mr. RHODE. I think he was outside of our refuge area, but it was the military that had conflicted there. Senator JACKSON. Mr. Rhode, in the normal course of events in the States, we have State game refuge areas and we have fish and wildlife refuge areas. Would you suggest dividing or turning over some of these Federal refuge areas to the new State and retaining some? Or would you retain it all or turn it all over to the State? Mr. RHODE. I believe some should be turned over to the State. Those which have only a local species of bird, for instance, that is not involved and does not go anywhere else, might be considered. I think that that would be a proper State refuge. That is nonmigratory. Senator CORDON. Where would that be? Mr. RHODE. In quite a few of the islands, they were set aside for such birds as cormorants, kittiwakes, and various species of salt-water birds which are not sporting varieties, and which do not come down here and therefore would not be involved in the United States. Senator CORDON. Do you have any of those outside waddling birds that we have such as gooney birds? Mr. RHODE. We do not have any of those. Senator JACKSON. How much of a dividing-up would you do here? You have 7 million acres in refuge areas. How much, approximately, of that would be turned over to the State now? The moose is indigenous to the area and it is nonmigratory; or he is not in interstate commerce? Mr. RHODE. That is right. Senator JACKSON. Would you make that a part of the State; that Kenai refuge? Delegate BARTLETT. Senator, if you will permit me, I do not think Mr. Rhode should have to answer that, because he is administrative officer and that would be a policy matter; would it not? Senator JACKSON. I do not want to press it. I think the chairman and I understand that some of these things are opinions of his and all of it has to be covered by a statement from the Department. I, for one, Mr. Chairman, would suggest that if he says something on the record here that he will want to delete later, he could do so. We just want to get information now, more than anything else. I believe the Department should have the right, in all of the testimony in connec tion with the various bureaus that are coming before the committee, to lay down what the policy of the Department is. I think the witnesses who are not in line with that policy should have a right to correct the record and take it out. I want to be fair about it. Is that agreeable? Senator CORDON. You can take it out of the record, if you desire to, or leave it in the record if you desire to and let it be understood that it is a general discussion of possibilities and in no sense represents a statement of departmental policy. Mr. RHODE. That is fair enough. My feeling would be in answer to your question that the Kenai moose are a very unique and valuable form of wildlife and my interests would be in seeing that they are not pushed off the map and that they have a place in our scheme of life. If it could be done under a State, I certainly would have no objection. They are a local animal. If we could be assured that they would stay, I think it makes little difference whether it is done by the State or by the Federal Government in that case. I am speaking as a conservationist. In the Aleutian Islands, the sea otter are pelagic in nature and they do extend far beyond the control of the State in their travels, and I think that the situation is different there. I would say the same thing with regard to Kodiak as I have with Kenai. Senator CORDON. What do you mean by "pelagic?" Mr. RHODE. They spend their life in the ocean and stray offshore away from waters. Senator JACKSON. That would be a seal and most of the sea mammals that you are really talking about. Beyond sea mammals, you would not have much application? Mr. RHODE. That is right. A sea otter never comes out of the water except just to the tides. Senator JACKSON. They can live out of water; they are a mammal, and they are not anadromous fish. Let me ask this question: Delegate Bartlett, would the new State be in a position to take over these game refuges that we are talking about in a general way? Delegate BARTLETT. I would say, "Yes." Senator JACKSON. Does the bill propose that all of it be turned over? Mr. RHODE. It proposes it not be turned over. Delegate BARTLETT. I think that they could. Senator JACKSON. Are you going to have a State game commission, or a State game administrator? Delegate BARTLETT. Yes. That would be set up. Senator JACKSON. What is the State going to administer? Mr. RHODE. All of the wildlife and fisheries of Alaska, other than these national refuge areas. That is what the bill provides. That would be 99 percent of the administration of game and fish. Delegate BARTLETT. If I were to answer your question, I would do so this way: I would say that moose herd on Kenai Peninsula, as Mr. Rhode has said, are extremely unique and the biggest moose herd in the world. Alaskans are not going to let it disappear. I would say in conformity with our conversation yesterday that 30 years ago we would not have felt so sure about a thing like that. Today, I think that so ciety would not permit the killing-off of an animal like that that is so unique. Senator CORDON. Not all of them, anyway. Delegate BARTLETT. Or any considerable number of them. Mr. BILL. If I may interject a point here, I would like to say that as far as the moose herd on Kenai is concerned, one of the biggest problems is a matter of providing winter food. Senator CORDON. How do you provide winter food that nature does not provide? Mr. BALL. Nature provides the willows, the birch, and the aspens. They are the first things that come in after the fir. They are gradually superseded by the spruce. When you get solid stands of spruce, you lose practically all of your winter food value in the area. One of our problems in the management of the Kenai for continuing the moose herd is to provide sufficient winter habitat by controlling these solid stands of spruce. Senator CORDON. How do you control them? Mr. BALL. Burning is one of the methods. Senator CORDON. When you burn, do you not burn everything? Can an aspen know that it is not to be burned? Mr. BALL. The aspen has already been crowded out in these solid stands of young spruce. Senator CORDON. And you wait, then, until the spruce has crowded out the food and then you burn it? Mr. BALL. Substantially, that is what it amounts to. Senator JACKSON. Are you not destroying the balance of nature? Mr. RHODE. You manipulate it to the benefit of the moose. Senator JACKSON. There are other animals in that area. Are you deleting some of the other wildlife in that area? The spruce habitat may be helpful to a certain type of wildlife. Mr. BALL. Undoubtedly, you may affect some other types of wildlife but the area is being managed primarily for the moose. Senator JACKSON. Is it commercial timber or just scrub-type timber in the spruce that you burn out? Mr. BALL. Just scrub-type timber, and it has little or no market value to it. Senator CORDON. Assuming we have a fair picture of Kenai, and we know that you have control of everything from the first of the Aleutian Islands to the last except what the military has, then what? Mr. RHODE. One other large area is Kodiak Island. Senator CORDON. Did you discuss that in my absence? Mr. RHODE. No, sir. Senator CORDON. All right, go ahead. Mr. RHODE. That area is primarily set aside to guarantee the existence of the large Alaska brown bear, which is, of course, found in no other American territory. Senator CORDON. Is it found on the mainland? Mr. RHODE. Yes, sir, it is. similar bear. That is, not the Kodiak bear, but a Senator JACKSON. Is it called the Kodiak bear? Mr. RHODE. Only the one on Kodiak is called that. Senator JACKSON. Is that different than the other one? Mr. RHODE. Mammalogists find a difference, Senator. It is not materially different from those on the Alaska Peninsula. Senator JACKSON. When you refer to the big brown bear, that is the same? Mr. RHODE. It is a Kodiak brown bear. Senator JACKSON. Is that the biggest type of bear found in North America? Mr. RHODE. Yes. The world's record came from Kodiak Island. Senator JACKSON. I notice a part of that appears to be in the national forest. You have some red areas on it and a little bit of yellow on the map there. Will you give us a general picture of Kodiak Island? That is a reserve for what? Mr. RHODE. It is reserved for the continuation of the Kodiak brown bear, or the management of him. That is an Indian reservation at the mouth of the river, depending upon the fishery there. Senator CORDON. Do they have any fishery rights or hunting rights there? Mr. RHODE. Hunting is allowed over the whole island and fishing is the big industry, and it is also under the jurisdiction of the Fish and Wildlife Service. Senator CORDON. If you allow hunting, what do you do on Kodiak to take care of the Kodiak brown bear? Mr. RHODE. We do not have to burn spruce trees in order to feed him. The primary purpose there is to maintain the bear there in proper numbers and, if too many are killed, the killing will be reduced. We use it as a combined project with the continuation of the fisheries there. Senator CORDON. Do you have any special laws for open and closed season and bag limit with respect to this bear? Mr. RHODE. Yes. The feelings in Alaska, in many areas, are mixed with regard to the brown bears. Some feel that they are a great nuisance because they might occasionally attack persons or property. I feel that unless the Federal Government does maintain an area where they can be retained, they may eventually be exterminated. I think their protection is quite important, and I believe that in another few years most people of Alaska will feel the same, but right now there are quite a few who are antagonistic toward the brown bear. Senator CORDON. Do you have any other area where you protect the brown bear, and what about that Kenai area? Do you protect any brown bear there? Mr. RHODE. There are a few grizzly bears there. Not many; relatively few. Senator CORDON. How many acres do you have in the Kodiak Island in reserve? Mr. RIEMER. Just a little under 2 million acres. Senator CORDON. What are the red dots on the island, the red areas? Are they Government installations? Mr. RHODE. They are military reservations. Senator CORDON. How about the little blue area down here on Trinity Island? [Indicating.] Do you have anything to do with that? Mr. RHODE. I am trying to pick out the island from the legend. I am not sure what that is. Senator CORDON. It says here that it is a classification. Mr. COOTE. That little area there with two applications is for grazing. Senator CORDON. Do you know of any reason why you need to hold that away from Alaska if Alaska wants it? Mr. RHODE. I might say that 447,000 acres, almost 448,000 acres, are subject to entry and use, and in fact all of the area that could conceivably be needed. That includes a 1-mile strip clear around the island, and it was set aside to protect anyone who might want to come in there with any kind of an industry. Senator CORDON. If he wanted to come in, however, he would come in at the sufferance of the Secretary, would he not? He has no right to go and file on those, or anything of that sort? Mr. RHODE. He works through the Bureau of Land Management there. Senator CORDON. Well, someone in the Interior Department permits him to come or he cannot come? Mr. RHODE. That is right. Senator CORDON. And tells him not only whether he can come, but where he can come and how long he is to stay, and, substantially, what he is to do while he is there? Mr. RHODE. In the same manner as the national forest. Senator CORDON. It is a use permit? Mr. RHODE. That is right. Senator CORDON. Do you know of any reason why it should not be open to patenting by anyone who wants it? Mr. RHODE. So long as we could still maintain the brown bear there; I think that that is very important. I feel very strongly that that is a valuable and unique form of wildlife. Senator CORDON. What about the national forest area? Mr. RHODE. That is a separate island, sir. Senator CORDON. Is there any comparable forest on Kodiak? Mr. RHODE. Not on the area that is set aside for the bear. There are some trees on the northeast corner. Senator CORDON. It is all set aside for bear; is it not? Mr. RHODE. No. The area close to Kodiak is not included in the refuge. Senator CORDON. That is the only area that has any timber? Senator CORDON. There is a little piece set aside here [indicating]. Someone forgot to dip down in the blue water color. Delegate BARTLETT. That was a site of the famous rabbit reserve. Senator ANDERSON. The jackrabbit reserve still exists, does it not? Mr. RHODE. We do not know anything about that. We have never been able to find any reference to it. It has been a sort of a joke in Alaska for a number of years, and it is carried on as that, but we have no record that there was ever such a thing in existence. Senator CORDON. If you do not have a jackrabbit reserve on Kodiak, do you have rabbits? Mr. RHODE. We have some snowshoe hares we planted there, and we have some mountain goats we planted there this past year which are doing very well. Delegate BARTLETT. What about the elk ? |