dam for both irrigation and power purposes. We should develop the latter, in order to pay for the former.

Mr. LEAVY. And the area immediately contiguous to that, Mr. Secretary, and your geological staff has made its findings and reports on it, and I know it to be a fact, is a highly mineralized area that would consume tremendous amounts of electric energy at a low cost if it were available.

Secretary ICKES. I think that is true.

Mr. LEAVY. And this project is susceptible of developing something like 2%1⁄2 million horsepower of electric energy.

Secretary ICKES. I do not carry such large figures in mind. I can remember how much money I was given as Public Works Administrator, but I cannot carry all of these other figures in mind.

Mr. LEAVY. And the cost of it, as reported by your engineer in charge, Mr. Banks, is a fraction over one mill per kilowatt-hour, that is, the cost of generation.

Secretary ICKES. Yes; I think it would be an exceedingly low cost. Mr. FITZPATRICK. To whom would you distribute that tremendous amount of electric energy?

Secretary ICKES. If we developed that irrigation district it would use a great deal, and if we develop the mineral lands, they would use a great deal. Here is something that should always be borne in mind: We talk about developing a great amount of electricity in what appears to be a remote region.

The General Electric Co. and other electric companies are developing means of carrying high voltage great distances with no appreciable loss, and I think that even we in this room, the oldest of us, will live to see the day when we can generate power on the Columbia River and transport it hundreds and perhaps even thousands of miles without appreciable loss.

I am not a statistician, but I heard figures yesterday showing that the use of electric power in this country doubles every 7 years, that is, the consumption of it. In certain areas it doubles now every 5 years I do not think we need to be afraid tht we can ever develop electric power in this country that will not have a market.

Mr. FITZPATRICK. That is what I wanted to bring out, because we are often asked that question.

The CHAIRMAN. They figure now on power being transported a thousand miles, practically. So, it is not a local matter any more. Secretary ICKES. No.

Mr. LEAVY. That is a long-range project that runs over a quarter of a century, practically, before completion?

Secretary ICKES. I do not know. I always like to do things faster than that myself, and it is necessary to do it as quickly as possible. There is considerable loss on the money invested if you are dilatory about finishing a thing. None of us would build a building that way. We would not put in the foundation and then wait for years without constructing the superstructure.

CENTRAL VALLEY PROJECT

Mr. LEAVY. You are familiar with the Central Valley project in California?

Secretary ICKES. In a way. They are both P. W. A. projects.

Mr. LEAVY. But on Grand Coulee you are limited again, and can no longer spend P. W. A. money by reason of the limitation of Congress?

Secretary ICKES. That is right.

Mr. LEAVY. And that may be true of Central Valley. I am not familiar with the regulations.

Secretray ICKES. That is true of Central Valley.

Mr. LEAVY. Central Valley is a project that meets with your approbation and approval, and you recommend it to the committee? Secretray ICKES. Oh, yes; absolutely.

The CHAIRMAN. The main obstacle, Mr. Secretary, in carrying out these worthwhile measures is the vast quantity of money that it requires?

Secretary ICKES. Yes, sir; that is it.

The CHAIRMAN. And we cannot carry them all at once?
Secretary ICKES. That is true.

The CHAIRMAN. Each one has more or less to take its turn?

Secretary IсKES. That is right.

The CHAIRMAN. At the present time there are some States getting comparatively nothing?

Secretary ICKES. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. In other words, it is a question of cutting our garments according to our cloth somewhat?

Secretary ICKES. No; we cannot do them all at once; that is true. The CHAIRMAN. And we do have to give respectful consideration to the estimates of the National Resources Committee and the Budget and the President himself, and the authorities that be, to systematize this enormous amount of work that we have laid, and which is in progress.

EMERGENCY ACTIVITIES AND NEW ACTIVITIES ESTABLISHED IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT

Mr. RICH. I was interested, Secretary Ickes, when I wrote you on February 25, in reference to the various organizations that have come into your Department, and those activities that have gone out of Your Department, because I recall very definitely a year or so ago a tatement that you made before the Public Lands Committee on Conservation, and I am, in a measure, sympathetic with many of your ideas.

In order to be brief I would like to insert in the record the emergency activities that were established in the Department as given to me in reply to this letter, if that is satisfactory to you.

Secretary ICKES. That is quite all right.

Mr. RICH. And also the new activities that were established in the Interior Department, and the list of activities that were transferred to the Interior Department.

Secretary ICKES. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. We usually put that in the record of the hearings. I think the last time we had 18 new activities.

Mr. RICH. They list some 20 new activities.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes.

(The letters and the lists of activities referred to are as follows:) FEBRUARY 25, 1937.

Hon. HAROLD L. ICKES,
Secretary of the Interior,

Washington, D. C.

MY DEAR MR. ICKES: In order to give your Department the benefit of every possible consideration in connection with requested appropriation, I believe it would be very helpful if you would send me a list of agencies and bureaus under your departmental administration which have been created as emergency activities. Also, kindly note any new agencies or activities brought under your administration since your assumption of the secretaryship.

As one of the members of the subcommittee for the consideration of the Interior Department appropriation bill I think this information would be of value to me at this time.

Thanking you in advance for same, I am,

Very respectfully,

ROBERT F. RICH.

INTERIOR DEPARTMENT,
Washington, March 4, 1937.

Hon. ROBERT F. RICH,

House of Representatives.

MY DEAR MR. RICH: In response to your request of February 25, I am glad to send you herewith a list of new activities brought under my supervision since assuming the office of Secretary of the Interior, and a list of the emergency activities established in this Department.

Sincerely yours,

HAROLD L. ICKES,
Secretary of the Interior.

EMERGENCY ACTIVITIES ESTABLISHED IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT

1. Puerto Rico Reconstruction Administration.

2. Recreational demonstration projects in national parks.

3. Work camps in national parks.

4. Emergency conservation work in national parks, on Indian reservations, grazing areas, reclamation projects, territories, and island possessions, etc.

Secretary ICKES. The activities listed as 2, 3, and 4 are under the direction of regular agencies of the Department, but they operate as separate units thereunder. This list, of course, does not include emergency projects of the various bureaus and offices of the Department for which separate administrative units have not been established.

NEW ACTIVITIES ESTABLISHED IN THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT

1. Division of Grazing, Office of the Secretary.

2. Division of Motion Pictures, Office of the Secretary.

3. Petroleum Conservation Division, Office of the Secretary.

4. Board of Indian Arts and Crafts.

5. National Bituminous Coal Commission.

6. Consumers' Counsel, of the National Bituminous Coal Commission.

ACTIVITIES TRANSFERRED TO THE INTERIOR DEPARTMENT

To the Office of the Secretary

1. United States Geographic Board.

2. Administration of Puerto Rico.

3. Bureau of Mines.

Separate Bureau

To the National Park Service

4. Office of Public Buildings and Public Parks. 5. Arlington Memorial Bridge Commission.

6. Public Buildings Commission.

7. Agriculture Department Buildings (6 buildings).

8. Veterans' Administration Buildings (4 buildings).

9. Treasury Department Buildings (9 buildings).

10. National Monuments, Agriculture (16 monuments).

11. Abraham Lincoln National Monument.

12. National Military Parks, Battlefields, and Cemeteries (33 areas). 13. National Military Monuments (14 monuments).

14. National Memorial Commission.

15. Rock Creek and Potomac Parkway Commission.

16. Perry's Victory Memorial Commission.

To the Office of Education

17. Federal Board for Vocational Education.

For administration of expenditures

18. Commission of Fine Arts.

19. George Rogers Clark Sesquicentennial Commission. 20. Mount Rushmore National Memorial Commission.

In addition to the above, two new divisions, the Division of Investigations and the Division of Territories and Island Possessions, were established in the Office of the Secretary by the consolidation of activities already under the jurisdiction of the Department.

CONSOLIDATION OF GRAZING LAND AREAS

Mr. RICH. In the discussion a year ago in reference to grazing under the Taylor Act, the President, the Secretary of Agriculture, and the Secretary of the Interior had the power to consolidate the grazing lands of this country, but for some reason or other they did not act. I feel confident that I am quoting the Secretary of the Interior correctly when I say he was anxious that the grazing lands of this country be consolidated for the purpose of getting economy in operation and economy in handling grazing. Those three men no longer have that power, and it is up to Congress, as I understand it now, if it is going to be consolidated, to do so.

With the establishment at the present time in the Department of the Interior of the grazing activities, I can see where it is going to cost a lot of money if that Department is set up in the Department of the Interior. How can we, in some manner, have the grazing activities of the Department of Agriculture and those that are now being set up in the Interior Department put under one head for the purpose of efficiency and economy?

Secretary ICKES. If the President's Executive reorganization ideas are adopted by Congress, he would have the power to do that.

Mr. RICH. That takes us to the point where we have an investigation of Government activities in the Senate. We have a committee for consolidation. We had a committee in the House, and the President has established a committee.

Secretary ICKES. There is a joint committee that is considering the bill now, as I understand it.

Mr. RICH. I did not so understand.

Mr. LEAVY. That is right; a joint committee of the House and the Senate.

Secretary ICKES. Yes, a joint committee of the House and Senate. Mr. RICH. Mr. Secretary, if there is a joint committee I am glad to know it.

Secretary ICKES. Yes; there is.

Mr. RICH. Is it possible to get that joint committee to take any action at this session of Congress?

Secretary ICKES. Well, I think the administration has hopes that it will. That was one of the first messages that the President sent up, asking for these powers.

Mr. RICH. I have been in Congress for 6 years, and it has been discussed every year, and we have never gotten any place with it. I know that you are a driver when you start to do something, and I was hoping you would get to the point where you could help drive this thing through.

Secretary ICKES. You and I have never disagreed as to the policy that should be adopted on the grazing situation, Congressman. It is not within my power.

Mr. RICH. What I want to try to do is to drive it home to the Members of Congress and my associates on this subcommittee that we might be of some service in trying to consolidate these grazing interests.

Secretary ICKES. I think to raise the question now apart from the consolidation act that the President is advocating might not be advantageous, and it raises a side issue which might help to defeat the general act.

Mr. RICH. You are hopeful, then, that we are going to get some place on this consolidation, are you?

Secretary ICKES. I am quite hopeful.

REDUCTION OF DEPARTMENTAL EXPENSES AND INCREASE OF

RECEIPTS

Mr. RICH. Now, Mr. Secretary, you have seen the increasing budget of the Federal Government in your Department, as well as in other departments. Looking at the thing as a whole, you have noticed the Treasury statements, and how fast our funds are being depleted, and how we are going into the red. What have you done in the Department of the Interior in the past year to try to cut down the expenses of your Department, and to increase your revenues in some manner in order that your Department may, if possible, come nearer to balancing the amount of outgo with the income that you expect to receive from it?

Secretary ICKES. It has taken not a little of my energy to fight off Members of Congress who want moratoria on our revenues.

Mr. RICH. Have you been able to hold them back?

Secretary ICKES. I have been quite a stumbling block. I have tried to be. Very frankly I have said to more than one Member of Congress, and that applies to both Houses, that I have not been able to see the justification for asking us to grant moratoria as to certain reclamation districts, for instance, when the reclamation districts. have been as prosperous as they have been during the last few years. I think we frankly have to face that situation sooner or later. So far