M.

Raoul Duval and

16 Dec. 1891.

concessions.

19,291. (Sir William Lewis.) Have there been any instances in your coalfields of concessionaires, after acquiring and proving the mines, sub-letting the M. Aguillon. concession into two, three, or more different collieries, so as to be worked by sub-concessionaires ?-To our knowledge there is none. The concession makes a Sub-letting of whole, which is worked by the same company or the same owner, and there is no sub-division afterwards. Sometimes it happens that a request is made to remit a little of the duty payable in respect of the surface. By the working of the concession one knows after a while that some parts are void of minerals; and so in order to lessen the charges the concessionaire is inclined to ask the Government to be relieved of a part of the concession which will give him no profit.

Law of 1810, Art. 39.

of mines.

19,292. (Chairman.) Have the provisions contained in Article 39 of the law of 1810 been practically carried out, and are the royalties paid to the State applied towards the defraying of the expenses of the administration of mines?-Article 39 of the law of 1810 has been repealed by the Budget Resolution of 1814, which abolished the system of special funds. Since 1814 the taxes on mines are thrown into the general revenue, together with the land tax (impôt foncier), payable on the surface corresponding to the dues levied on mines. The expenses of the administration of the Mines Act are defrayed out of the estimates of each year.

Expense of the 19,293. Could you inform the Commission what is administration the actual yearly expense of the administration of the mines?—The whole expense of the administration of mines per annum may be given as follows:—(1.) Conseil Général of Mines, viz., nine inspectors, whose salaries and expenses amount to 140,000 francs; employés and petty expenses 15,000 francs. (2.) Stationary duty, viz., 20 head engineers and 40 ordinary engineers whose salaries and expenses amount to 405,000 francs ; 120 controllers of mines, &c. whose salaries and expenses amount to 480,000 francs. (3.) Central Administretion, Paris employés, 100,000 francs; stock, 80,000 francs. (4.) School of Mines, Paris, 250,000 francs; School of Mines, St. Etienne, 65,000 franes; School of Foremen at Douai and Alzis, 35,000 francs, making a total of 350,000 francs. (5.) Geological Survey Map of France, 80,000 francs. Making a gross total of 1,650,000 francs. These sums under heads (1) to (3) must be taken, subject to deduction from the total expenditure of the corps des mines, part of the engineers of this corps and their agents being employed in controlling railways or other detached services. Likewise, as regards the Central Administration, the agents employed in the Department of Mines have other occupations, for which a deduction should be made. The expenses above given may be called the expenses of the ordinary service, which include the inspection and superintendence of the laws and regulations of steam machinery and boilers, in addition to that of laws and regulations affecting mines, minières, and quarries.

Economic effect of the mining law in France.

19,294. In addition to the answers which M. Aguillon has been kind enough to prepare to the questions, I believe you have been so good as to make some corrections in the memorandum on the mining laws of France ?—Yes.

19,295. Perhaps you will be good enough to give. hose corrections to the member of the Commission who has prepared the summary; I do not think they are of sufficient importance for it to be necessary for me to ask any questions regarding them ?-I do not think so either. The corrections have been made by M. Aguillon and myself in consultation, so I believe we shall be able to make the memorandum absolutely correct with a few additions.

19,296. Could you give the Commission the benefit of your opinion as to the general economical effect of the present mining law of France ?-As to the economic results of the law of the 21st of April 1810, M. Aguillon and myself agree with most of the people in France who are interested in that question, that the results have been exceedingly favourable, and that the development of the production of coal, especially which

has taken place in the last 50 years, has been greatly due to that law. You know that by the Code Civil in France an inheritance must be equally divided between the children after the deaths of the parents, both in regard to the real and the personal estate. For instance, suppose that a gentleman dies leaving a concession, if it were not for the law relating to concessions that obligation of the Code Civil would be applied, and the concession divided. There is no doubt that extreme sub-division would very likely greatly injure the exploitation of the mines. These concessions cannot be divided, and therefore they are always large enough to admit of sufficient capital being raised either by the actual owners or by companies to work them, and to work them to a profit. There is no doubt that this moditication of the general law of inheritance in France has been of practical value in connexion with coal mining. I believe M. Aguillon and myself may state most decidedly that the constitution of the mineral property as it has been established by the grant by the State is a very good thing, and a great source of profit for everyone-for the owner of the mine, for the State itself, and for the

consumer.

19,297. I think I gather from your reply that in your opinion, supposing the right to minerals in France had been with the owner of the surface the great sub-division of landed property would have been a serious obstacle in carrying on the mineral industry?—Yes, exactly.

19,298. And, therefore, under the French system, the minerals being conceded to parties, not the owners of the surface, it has been a great advantage to the development of the industry?-Certainly.

19,299. In case of a concession of minerals in Transfer of France remaining in the hands of a single individual, concession on what would be the law on his death as regards its death of division? It remains as a concession, and cannot be concessionaire. divided; and so if there are several heirs they are obliged to sell it.

19,300. The Administration of mines would have to be consulted and to approve before a concession of minerals could be divided, would it not?—It is transferred to the heirs exactly as any other property is transferred, but they cannot divide it.

19,301. Practically this subdivision is impossible in respect of a mining concession ?--Yes, the heirs must arrange that amongst themselves.

19,302. (Lord Macnaghten.) Can any one heir force a sale?-If the heirs do not agree together they are obliged to sell it, because it is not a divisible property, and also if they do not agree together to keep it they must sell it.

19,303. (Chairman.) There is a particular provision, I think, in Article 7 of the cahier des charges to the effect that concessions are transferable like all other property, but cannot be sold in lots or divided without the consent of the Administration ?—Exactly; but it is not by regulations, it is according to the law itself.

19,304. That is the law or regulation ?-The law. 19,305. I presume that practically most of your big Mining collieries in France are managed by companies?—Yes, companies.

that is the fact.

19,306. (Sir William Lewis.) And the shares in such companies are easily sold, are they not, in cases of death or in case of a desire to change an investment?-Yes, many of the shares are marketable, either in Paris, or in Lille, or in Lyons-in places close to the mines.

19,307 (Mr. Dale.) Have such companies usually purchased concessions or have they taken a lease paying the concessionaires so much per ton ?-Generally the companies themselves are concessionaires. A company is raised in the first place to make searches -a small company-and if it is successful and if the concession is granted, they organise a company to work the concession which has been granted. I do not believe that there are any instances of leases; if there are some they are very few. Sometimes there has been a kind of lease because the concession is being

worked by a company on account of others, but those instances are very few, and I do not believe that they are sufficient to be of any importance.

19,308. (Sir. William Lewis.) With reference to your observations as to the sub-division of land, do you consider it is an advantage to a district that a number of concessions should be put together, say, to the extent of the company at Anzin, which has got 70,000 acres is that not regarded as a large district, and is it considered undesirable that one company should embrace so large an area of minerals and lock it up? -There has been a good deal of discussion on the subject in France in relation to the Anzin Company you referred to. You know it is a very old concession. In the concessions of recent dates I do not believe that the Government would grant a concession over such an area. However, the general feeling is that the concessions must not be of too small an area. The extent of course depends upon the country where the mineral is lying, and whether there are other concessions close by. I believe the last concessions which have been made answer to about what we think the best area for which concessions should be made.

19,309. The most recent concessions you are referring to? Yes, those most recently given. For instance, one of the last concessions which has been granted is in the central part of France, and it is close to a place where there have been very old workings since the last century. The new concession extends over an area of about 3,000 hectares, which makes over 6,000 acres.

19,310. Is that about the extent of concessions that are now granted, having regard to other circumstances, of course?-The area varies in our part of France, but now it is acknowledged that too small concessions do not put the concessionaire into as good a position as he should be put in, and are not profitable to either the consumer or to the concessionaire.

19,311. Where these various concessions have been acquired from time to time by different companies. and made practically into one concern, has it been found that they have extended their operations of work anything like proportionately to the area, as in cases where the original concessionaires are limited to one concession?-As we have published every year statistics giving the production of each concession, it would be easy to give you the full and correct information that you ask for. As a fact these concessions, such as Anzin, have since the last 30 years increased in immense proportions. Of course they have profits which they can apply so as to increase their production, and when they are, like Anzin, in a district where there is a great want of coal, they can sell as much as they can produce; in fact, the whole of that part of France still imports foreign coal. That is a proof that the French companies could sell more. Every year there are new shafts sunk, and the production is spreading very quickly.

19,312. Did I rightly understand you to say that in that part of France they could sell more coal if they raised it?—Yes, no doubt.

19,313. The company which has got this large area?—Yes, they could; but they want time to sink a shaft. One cannot augment the production of a mine in a few months; that must take time, and requires a great deal of preparatory works. Some of the members of the Commission have a little book which gives the production of the coalfield of northern France, and if you refer to the statistics you will see that the production has been increasing very rapidly during the last 40 years.

19,314. Could you give us any information as to the railway rates from collieries to inland places as compared with the rates from collieries to the seaboard; are there any differential rates ?-Yes, there are still differential rates; but the rates by rail are of course higher than the rates by sea. For instance, the coal coming from the North of France to Paris costs now about 7 francs a ton, and you know as well as myself that from England to the Mediterranean Sea it costs you 6s. now.

M. Raoul Duval

and M. Aguillon.

16 Dec. 1891.

19,315. I was not asking that; I was asking more with reference to collieries supplying coal for inland purposes, say, to Paris; or supplying coal to be delivered on the seaboard of France, say, for steam purposes, or for exportation, if you like; do the Government give any differential rates over their railways depending upon the uses to which the coal is to be Transit applied?-As you know, in France the railways are charges under the supervision of the Government, and so the rates for the traffic must be what we call homologated by the Board of Public Works. When these tariffs are under inspection at the Ministry of Public Works one takes into consideration all the interests concerned. There are still some differential rates-the rates are not proportional to the distance, and they depend on circumstances. For instance, for a long time the rate for sending coal to Paris particularly was always the same whatever was the mine it came from. A mine which was, for instance, 50 miles further off did not pay more than the nearest one to Paris; it was always the same tariff, 7 francs. Now, there have been some complaints about it, and there has been a change made in that, and new clauses have been introduced; for instance, a full train-load of coal would be charged at a lower rate than only a waggonload; and then to favour the exportation of coal in some parts of France a uniform tariff is made for coal which has to be put on board ship. There are many such arrangements, depending on the circumstances of each particular case, but always made under the authority and supervision of the Government.

19,316. But are there lower rates for coal going to the seaboard than for coal going inland ?—The industries, and commerce, and the consumer always ask for lower rates, and the company when they find an advantage in it propose lower rates, and if there is no objection the Government allows them. But in fact I believe that our rates in France are now still rather higher than in some other countries.

owner, and the development of the minerals

19,317. In answer to the Chairman you said that Royalties to the royalty to the surface owner in some cases in St. the surface Etienne amounted, I think, to 50 centimes per ton; has that charge in your opinion interfered in any way with the development of the minerals ?-Of course it is a charge upon the consumer because the price is raised by the redevance. As you know, St. Etienne is quite an inland country and it supplies coal only to a circle of French consumers. It is, therefore, very difficult to say that the royalty has interfered with and lowered the exportation. I do not believe it has, but we cannot tell because no foreign coal comes to St. Etienne. Of course if one was not paying 50 centimes, or 4d. or 5d., to the landowner, one could sell the coal that same amount cheaper. The St. Etienne is a very extensive coalfield in a very industrious part of France, and so the sale of coal there is very active and they produce as much as they can.

19,318. And I believe the minerals in the district have been developed rapidly?—Yes. The great difficulty at St. Etienne is that the coal is of rather a high price, because, as I said, it is a very industrial country, where there are a lot of buildings and much of the mines are worked near the town under buildings to the great annoyance of the owners of the surface, and that gives rise to claims for damages, and therefore very heavy expenses fall on the mine owner. Various industries have been developing also for many years in this district, and there is a great population inhabiting a large number of houses, factories, and so on; and when you work rather thick beds in those parts you cause a subsidence of the surface and injure the buildings and the properties and in that way heavy damages have to be paid.

19,319. But the existence of that payment does not in any way deter people from establishing factories in that district ?-No.

19,320. (Mr. Burt.) Is the amount of royalty paid to the surface owner at St. Etienne higher or lower than the amount of royalty paid to the surface owner in other parts of France ?-The royalty paid to the surface owner is much higher in St. Etienne than in any

other part of France, because, you see, it is about 5d., and in other parts of France it is only a fixed royalty per hectare, which is a very low sum, so low that very Often it is not paid.

19,321. I understood from an answer you gave earlier that that amount of 5d. per ton applies to about three million tons ?-Yes, that is it exactly.

19,322. Can you state why it is exceptionally high in that part of France ?-Because the St. Etienne coalfields are nearly the most anciently worked in France, and are governed by old regulations which have not been applied to new concessions.

19,323. It was established, then, a very long time ago?-Yes, a very long time ago, and the old regulations were respected by the law of the 21st of April 1810; they were anterior to that law.

19,324. The State has the right to interfere in these mines, and to sanction and to refuse ?-In France the quantity raised by each colliery is under the supervision of the State, under the supervision of the Administration of Mines, and one knows that so much coal has been raised from under such a surface; and one knows that if, for instance, there have been 10,000 tons of coals raised the owner there is entitled to ask for 5,000 francs.

19,325. You will not be able, I suppose, to state the average amount per ton paid as royalty to the surface owner throughout France ?-At St. Etienne, I have told you that it was 50 centimes, but in other parts of France we cannot say what it is, because it is fixed by the area of the surface and not at all by the underground working, and so it differs.

19,326. One pays upon ground under which there is no working, and so it does not interfere with the price of coal, but it is a low charge; in fact, it is a trifle. I understand from you that is quite an exceptional thing for that amount to be paid?—Yes, because a man who possesses, for instance, half a hectare-one acre-of ground is entitled to receive a halfpenny only, and he will not go to receive it.

19,327. (Mr. Robertson.) Is there any difficulty in the way of a French subject who has obtained a concession granting his rights to foreigners who may form a company for the purpose of acquiring land? -There is no objection whatever. In France any foreigner may possess land, houses, and estates, and the law has been establishing the property in mines on exactly the same terms as other property. Mines may be sold to foreigners, and in fact there have been some foreigners owning such property in France. There are lead mines in Aveyron belonging to an English company.

19,328. Are there any English companies in France owning coalfields and working coal mines ?-Any English or foreign companies?

19,329. Yes, any foreign companies ?-A foreigner may be entitled to have a concession; he may be authorised to make searches to get a concession, and so he might buy a concession also.

19,330. The question I want to put to you is this: Can you tell us whether British capitalists have invested money largely in coal mining in France?—It is very difficult to say, because, as the largest companies in France are now shares companies, their shareholders may be foreigners; there is no disposition whatever to prevent it.

19,331. There is nothing against it ?—No, there is nothing against it, and I believe a good deal of investment is made in mining companies in France by foreign financiers.

19,332. With what countries does the coal trade of France chiefly compete?-With England and Germany.

19,333. To the greater extent with which country? -You can see the statistics which are published every year which give the import of English coal and of German coal, and you may compare those imports with the home production.

19,334. Is the competition keener with Britain than it is with Germany?-Germany sends a good deal of coal into the eastern part of France.

19,335. Some strikes have taken place in France during recent years, and coal has been imported into the country largely during the continuance of the strikes; has that coal been taken from Britain or from Germany? From both countries, of course, when there has been a scarcity of coal. We saw when coming across here at Boulogne that they were landing a good deal of English coal, and then on the eastern frontier a good deal of German coal has been introduced, of

course.

19,336. Can you state the average wages paid to Miners' wages. the French miners ?-There is a book of statistics collected by a mining engineer which gives the wages. Of course the wages vary as between one concession and another.

19,337. Have wages tended to rise or fall during the past four years in France?-To rise.

19,338. I mean miners' wages?—Yes, I understand. 19,339. Has there been any proposal to reduce wages during that time?—No, I have not heard of any proposal to reduce the wages.

19,340. Has the demand of the royalty charge in France had any effect upon the wages paid to the miners ?-I do not believe that it has had any effect; it is very small.

19,341. Are the wages at St. Etienne as high as they are in other parts of France?-I could not answer that question, but there are statistics published in France which you could refer to. I should not like to give you doubtful figures, and I am not prepared to answer such a question.

the minerals.

19,342. In granting concessions to parties wishing Action of to work the minerals in France, is the Government Government desirous of aiding them in developing the mineral in developing fields? No doubt the Government is careful of all interests and does what it can for the best. It is for that reason that it takes the advice of the Conseil Général des Mines and of the Conseil d'État.

19,343. Do you know of any case where difficulty has arisen between a party desiring to acquire rights in a mineral field and the Government regarding the amount that should be paid, and where it has been so great that the proposal to take a coalfield has not been taken up?—No, I do not believe that has ever been the case.

19,344. In every case the Government departments and the proposers have come to terms?—Yes.

19,345. Is it within your knowledge that the Government department has ever subsidised a company working very poor mines, or helped them to tide over a time of depression by giving them a grant ?— Never.

19,346. (Professor Munro.) I presume that you Mineral are acquainted with the annual volume of mineral statistics, 1888. statistics issued in France ?-Yes, we can give you statistics for the year 1890. The volume the Commission has here is for 1888, but the statistics have been published up to the year 1890.

19,347. I should like to ask one or two questions in Concessions explanation of the tables in that volume, and first I worked. would refer you to the table giving the total number and surface of concessions granted and worked, which shows that in France, out of 1,363 concessions granted in the year 1888, 454 only were worked ?—Yes, I see

that.

19,348. The next two columns in this table give the extent of the surface belonging to the same concessions, and the last two columns give the per-centages of the concessions worked?-Yes, that is so.

19,349. Now I will turn to the table on page 20 Production and of the Volume. Does the shaded part of that consumption. table represent the production of coal in France, and the white part at the top the imports from other countries?—Yes, you are perfectly right; the entire diagram represents the general consumption, the shaded part represents the home production, and the difference between that and the total is the import. (See Appendix C. IV.)

19,350. Does the line running across the middle of Selling prices. the page give the average price of the coal at the pit's mouth for each year ?-Yes.

19,351. And the upper line gives the price per ton at the place of consumption?-Yes.

19,352. Would that represent the retail price?— No, there is the carriage of the coal to the place of consumption and all the sundry other expenses till it is delivered to the consumer.

19,353. What I wished to ask was whether the upper line represents the retail price or the wholesale price at the place of consumption ?-It is the wholesale price by waggon; one does not get so far into the detail as to know the prices to the retail dealers and so forth.

19,354. Could you kindly say how the information is obtained for drawing up these tables?-For the middle line, which gives the price at the pit, the information is based on the declaration of the coal owners, supervised by the mining engineers of the State. The top line, which gives the price at the place of consumption, is based upon figures prepared by the mining engineers on information upon which they consider they can rely.

19,355. Then, in regard to the price at the pit, is the price calculated upon the total amount raised or upon the total amount sold?—It is the price of the quantity sold, and also of the quantity used by the company itself; it includes that.

19,356. What places are selected as the points where the prices represented by the upper line are ascertained?-That upper line represents the average price for all the departments of France. We have a statistical return in France which gives the price of coal nearly all over France, and it is an average price for all France based upon that return which gives you that upper line to which you are referring.

19,357. In other words, you ascertain the wholesale prices of coal at all the leading towns and centres of consumption in France ?-Yes.

?

19,358. And you prepare an average in that way: -Yes, that is how we get the average.

19,359. Then does the small shaded portion at the lower end of the table represent the export trade in coal ?-Yes.

19,360. It follows from that table that France imports a great deal more coal than she exports?— Yes.

19,361. A table relating to imports and exports is given on page 13 ?-Yes. (See Appendix C. IV.)

19,362. From that table it appears that France imported about 10 million tons in 1888 ?—Yes. 19,363. There were over 5 million tons from Belgium and over 4 million tons from England?— Yes.

19,364. Does the figure at the side of the table on page 20," Exportation 629,000," mean that France exported 629,000 tons during that year?-The 629,000 tons that you point to is the exportation of France for the year 1888; you will see in the figures below that the exportation for 1888 is given as 629,000; that figure at the side of the diagram agrees with the figure given in the table below. (Appendix C. IV.)

19,365. I notice that 1883 and 1884 were the years in which the largest amount was imported into France?-Yes, that is so.

19,366. And that there has been a slight falling off since those years?—Yes.

19,367. Have you the figures relating to 1890 ?— No. The French Custom House tables would give you the importation into France month by month, and in that way you may get the figures not only for the year 1890 but for nearly the whole of the year 1891. The French Custom House statistics give you both the monthly importation and the monthly exportation.

19,368. Do you know when the import duty of 1s. per ton was placed upon coal imported into France? -The duty on coal is 1 franc 20 centimes, and it has always been in existence; it has not been altered; it is still the same that it has been for many years. 19,369. It has not been increased of late years ?No, it has not been increased.

19,370. Now I will turn to the table on page 17; that table gives the average price of coal in the different

19,371. The coal seems to have been highest in price in the Loire basin ?—Yes, it was, for the reason that I have told you, that there is a great industry there, and that there is no competition of other coal. 19,372. St. Etienne is in the Loire basin, is it not? Selling prices. -Yes.

-

19,373. Now, turning to the table on page 11, that Wages. gives the annual and daily wages of the workmen in each basin distinguishing between underground workmen and overground workmen ?-Yes. (Appendix C. IV.)

19,374. The last column on that table gives the wages per ton for each district ?—Yes.

19,375. It appears from this table that in Alais the wages per ton are highest, 5'09 francs. Then comes Le Creusot et Blanzy, 6:33 francs, and then comes St. Etienne, 5.30 francs?—Yes.

19,376. Can you explain the reason why at St. Royalties and Etienne, where there is the high royalty payable to wages in the the surface owner, wages per ton are higher than in St. Etienne the North of France, where there is not this high district. surface royalty ?-The principal reason is that in those coalfields of Creusot et Blanzy the strata worked are very thick and generally have a great deal of impurities in them, and so to make the coal available for sale one is obliged to wash the coal, and in that way the wages per ton are increased, because the price, I should mention, refers to the coal ready for sale. In Aveyron and in all those large beds of coal where the mineral is mixed with a quantity of stone and so on there is a good deal of supplemental work required for putting the coal in a proper state for sale. That is the principal reason for the difference in the wages.

19,377. (Chairman.) That is explained in the paragraphs which follow the table, is it not ?—Yes, it is. 19,378. (Professor Munro.) There is another point that I should like to ask you about upon that table. If you will look at the daily wages of the underground worker, you will see that they are higher at St. Etienne, where they are 471, francs, than they are in Nord et Pas-de-Calais, where they were only 3.89 francs in 1888 ?-It depends a great deal upon the reason I have already mentioned to you. the North of France they are generally working on beds which are not very thick, and it is curious to observe that the production per man is larger in small regular beds than it is in the more irregular ́strata which we have in the central part of France.

In

19,379. I notice in the table on page 17 that the Selling prices. average price of coal in the Loire is much higher than the average price in the Nord, nearly 3 or 4 francs higher (Appendix C. IV.) ?-That is for the same reason, there is a great consumption of the coal in the locality and there is no other place of production. To introduce foreign coal they would have to bring it a long way by rail at a very heavy expense, and it is natural, therefore, that the prices should be rising. On the other hand, St. Etienne sends some quantities of coal to Switzerland. It is a very large consuming and selling place for a rather limited coal basin.

19,380. Taking the average all round, it appears Selling prices from the table on page 4 that the average wages per and wages. ton are 5 francs 4 centimes ?-Yes, that is so.

19,381. And that the average price per ton in all districts, according to the table on page 17, is 10 francs

31 centimes ?—Yes.

19,382. It would amount to this, therefore, that the worker receives in wages not quite 50 per cent. of the price of the coal at the pit's mouth ?—Yes, it is nearly that.

19,383. Are there any other tables published bearing upon the cost of production besides this one ?-As I say, statistics are published yearly which give the cost of wages and many other data of that sort.

19,384. (Chairman.) What statistics do you refer to?-I refer to the statistics published in these small books. (Handing in pamphlets.) (Appendix C. III. 4 and 5.)

19,385. (Professor Munro.) Now with regard to iron, the table and diagram on page 22 relate to iron ore, I take it?—Yes. (Appendix C. IV.)

19,386. The shaded portion of the diagram shows the production of iron ore out of mines which have been conceded by the State?—Yes.

19,387. And the portion at the top shows the amount obtained out of open workings?—Yes.

19,388. The line crossing the page gives the average price per ton ?—Yes.

19,389. Would that be the average price per ton at the mine?—The line gives the average price for the ton of iron ore at the mine for mines and minières, that is, for open works and for underground works.

19,390. The average price for all iron ore raised from both mines and minières ?-Exactly. Under the diagram you have a table which gives the same price.

19,391. Are there any tables published showing the wages of the workers in iron mines?-On page 42 there is a table giving the number of workers in mines, but I am not sure whether there are any tables that would give us the wages of the workers working the iron ore (Appendix C. IV.) On page 11 you will see that there is some information given in the middle of the page, not in the table. There it says: "The 66 price per diem has been on an average 4 francs for pit workmen, 3 francs 38 centimes for those on "the placer mine, and 3 francs 80 centimes without "distinction of category "?-In the Statistiques Générales on page 49 you will find the figures as regards the wages for the workmen in iron mines.

66

19,392. What would you say has been the rise in wages at coal mines since those statistics were published, that is to say, since the year 1888 ?-Within the last two years there have been two successive increases of 10 per cent. in the Nord et Pas-deCalais.

19,393. In the Pas-de-Calais ?—Yes; and nearly everywhere there is a tendency to increase the wages. Wages have not been lowered; they have been rising, not by such an augmentation as 10 per cent., but in accordance with the quantity produced; and the payment for haulage and timbering generally has shown an increase.

19,394. It is not at all recognised yet that wages should rise as the price of coal rises?-It is a matter of fact that the price of coals has risen, and as it has risen the workmen have asked for an advance in wage and it has been granted to them.

19,395. Are wages higher in those districts and provinces where the total royalties are low than they are where the total royalties are high?—I do not believe that the difference of royalties has any effect upon wages; the wages depend upon local circumstances entirely.

19,396. The difference is due to other circumstances than the royalties?—Yes. M. Aguillon states that at St. Etienne, where the royalties are the highest, the wages are also the highest.

19,397. I take it that local considerations and perhaps old customs are very powerful still in France in regard to wages?-I do not believe that the prices are varying, and I do not believe that the old customs have any effect on the fixation of the actual wages. The workmen can now go from one part to another, and by the railways they may travel at a very low cost, so that if there is an increase in wages at any one place the workmen would immediately go there, and in that way a general level tends to be maintained.

19,398. Supposing that a concession was applied for to the Government in the St. Etienne district, where, I understand, the royalty payable to the surface owner is 50 centimes per ton, would the Government in granting that concession stipulate that 50 centimes should be paid to the surface owner?-M. Aguillon says, of course, it is a matter which would be brought before the Conseil Général de Mines, but it is very likely that they would fix the same redevance so as not to put the concession in a better position than any other concession for the purposes of sale and free competition.

19,399. That is to say, that the State in fixing the royalty to the surface owner is largely guided by the existing royalties that are paid in a district?—Yes. It is a matter of fact, of course, that the general principle of the intervention of the Government in these questions is that it should act as a moderator for the purpose of putting all people on about the same footing.

19,400. Then if the Government fix a royalty of 50 centimes in the Loire basin as payable to the surface owner, and in another district in France they fix a lower royalty to the surface owner, might it not be said that they are giving an advantage to this other district as compared with the Loire district?—Yes, you are right, it might be; but in fact it is of no importance, because if you will look at the map you will see that all those places in the district of St. Etienne are rather distant from one another, and also that it is a very hilly country. The fares on the railway are very high, and therefore there is no chance that such a small difference as 50 centimes could put some company in the department of Aveyron, say, in a position to compete with St. Etienne. It would be only at the extreme points where they would be in a position to compete. Perhaps the 50 centimes would allow you. to go a few kilomètres more in the St. Etienne district or a few kilomètres less.

19,401. Then it would come to this: that these different coal basins are not necessarily connected one with the other except at certain points ?-No; at certain points they are competing. The competition is always decided merely by the question of the railway carriage.

19,402. Then in the same district the State always aims at fixing the same royalty?—Yes.

19,403. In fixing the royalty payable to the State is the object that the State has in view the raising of a sum that will be sufficient for defraying the expenses of the Mining Department ?-No; in fact the royalty on the taxes proportional and fixed raised by the Goverument is a part of the income of the country, and it is not determined by the cost of the Mining Department, which has to overlook some things other than mining; for instance, as regards the inspection of steam engines and the control of railways, it is the corps des mines who are in charge of that. It is a national revenue which comes into the general budget as a receipt; and the expense of the corps des mines comes in the general budget as an expense, but without connexion the one with the other.

19,404. As a matter of fact, is the income of the State from mines larger or smaller than the total amount of the expenses of the Mining Department?— M. Aguillon informs me that the total amount paid as royalty is greater than the expenses, so that there is a surplus which comes as a revenue to the State. 19,405. Now, you told me that in each basin the Taxation. State endeavours to maintain a position of equality between two concessionaires by imposing exactly the same amount of taxation. If one concessionaire finds that his concession contains a better quality of coal, and is more easily worked than an adjoining concession, the State does not try to equalise the position of those two concessionaires by imposing a higher tax upon the one than upon the other, does it?-No; the redevance proportionelle and the fixed tax payable to the State, and the redevance payable to the owner of the surface, would be a trifle compared with the difference you refer to in the quality of the coal and the facilities of working it, which would have a great deal more effect than the small charge resulting from the taxation.

19,406. The question I was going to put to you is. Conceswho derives the advantage from the fact that one sionaires. concession is more valuable than the other; is it the concessionaire ?-It is only the concessionaire. When you grant the concession you do not know whether the working will be a profitable one or not. Many of these concessions have been complete failures. You have seen the number of concessions which have been granted, and you have seen that here are many