Mons. H. Hubert.

18,789. (Sir William Lewis.) It is a rateable value then, is it? It is a rateable value; it is a fictitious value which is up for the purpose of 15 Dec. 1891. establishing the amount of the tax. Upon that the 7 per cent. is charged. The impôt 18,790. (Chairman.) Are the mines exempt from that tax? The mine in the ground is exempt, but not the property in and about the mine; the buildings, the machinery, and the surface property are not exempt.

oncier.

Communal

axes.

18,791. M. Harzé, in his letter, informed us that mines are subject to special communal taxes, which are sometimes heavy; can you tell us whether those taxes are levied from other industries or not?-These taxes are actually very numerous, and they differ according to the different communes. Each commune has a special law, and I have prepared for the Commission a recapitulation of these taxes, according to the base of the tax. These taxes are imposed under the redevance des mines-the royalty-by putting an additional tax on the royalty, sometimes on the proportional royalty, sometimes on the fixed royalty, and sometimes on the proportional and fixed royalty. Sometimes the commune taxes the engines according to the norse-power or the square metre of boiler surface. In some other communes, the tax is based on the number of persons employed or per hectare of surface conceded. In numerous cases, a company pays one tax to one commune and another tax to another commune. As I have said, 1 will give the Commission a recapitulation of these taxes for the past two years. I cannot give the actual existing tax, because it changes frequently. The Government approves these taxes, and gives its approbation sometimes for one year, sometimes for three years, sometimes for ten years; and when the term is past, the commune has to apply for another approbation.

18,792. Can you tell us whether these taxes are levied upon mines only, or upon other industries as well?--Yes, some taxes are special to mines. The taxes based on the hectare of surface conceded and on the hectare of surface worked are special to mines. The taxes based on the number of persons employed are generally common to other industries, but in several communes the tax on a colliery per head of the workpeople employed is higher than for other industries. The taxes based on horse power and on the boiler surface are common to other industries. The taxes based on the royalty are special to mines. 18,793. So that some taxes are special to mines, and others are common to other industries?—Yes.

18,794. Would it be possible to give us any idea. of the incidence of those taxes which are special to mines per ton of coal raised?-It would be very difficult, because each commune has a special rule. I can give the recapitulation commune by commune, but I cannot at this moment give the details for each

commune.

18,795. Is it a heavy tax or not?-Sometimes it is relatively heavy. The town of Liège, for example, takes 125 per cent. on the royalty, and, in addition, Liège takes also a tax on the surface of the boilers.

18,796. The tax on the surface of the boilers would be common to other industries, I presume, from what you say ?—Yes.

18,797. It would not be a special tax on the mine? -No.

18,798. But the 125 per cent. on the royalty would be a special tax on the mine ?—Yes; but in the case of the tax on the boilers the commune of Liège exempt the collieries in respect of the boilers used for pumping water.

18,799. In Hainaut, where the greater portion of the coal from Belgium is raised, are the taxes heavy or not?-They are relatively heavy. I shall be happy to give the Commission an account of the tax in Hainaut and in Liège. (See Appendix C. IX. 1.)

18,800. If you would be good enough to do that we should be very glad?—I will recapitulate it by provinces. The province of Namur has no tax or

very few taxes, but the province of Hainaut and the province of Liège have numerous taxes.

18,801. Where the coal industry is a very important industry then the taxes are heavy ?—That is so, because the charges on the communes are also heavy in those provinces owing to the numerous working-class population, which, of course, is not rich. 18,802. In conjunction with M. Wiliquet you have published a book on mining law, I believe ?-Yes.

18,803. In the description which you gave in that The Cahier des book of the Cahier des Charges you say, I believe, Charges. that any clause in the Cahier which is contrary to the law has no validity?—Yes, I think that is so, and the principal authors of books on mining legislation think so too. The law has not forbidden the leasing of mines, it has forbidden the division of mines but not the leasing, and, in fact, we have in Belgium some examples of mines worked by lessees.

18,804. What you call forfaits. The Government has never forbidden the forfaits which exist ?-Never.

18,805. Has there never been any case within your Right of knowledge of the Government withdrawing a mining Government concession which has once been given ?-The Govern- to withdraw ment has never withdrawn a concession. The legists concessions. do not agree on this question. Recently it has been decided by the Conseil des Mines that the Government have not the right of withdrawing a concession; but in ancient times the contrary has been said by the same council and lately by the legislation committee, so that legislation is not well established on this subject. I think the Government could withdraw a concession if the mine were not worked, but it has not yet done so.

18,806. Would the question have to come for decision before a court of law ?-Yes, because the concession is a perpetual property established by the law, like surface property, and the Government cannot withdraw it, they must ask the decision of a court of law. In such a case I think the concession would not be destroyed, but that it would be granted to another concessionnaire. The property existed after the Act of Concession, and nothing can destroy it; it is a property like that of the surface.

18,807. In other words, the concession cannot be withdrawn by the arbitrary act of a minister. The question would have to be raised in a court of law, and even the court of law could not destroy the concession; it could only take it away from the individual person and give it to somebody else ?-That is so.

18,808. The concession, if it is not worked, can be withdrawn by the Government, but only after the decision of a court of law ?-Yes, I think so.

18,808a. (Mr. Whitmore.) On what is the decision of the court of law based-simply on the fact of its not being worked?—Yes.

18,809. (Chairman.) Can you give us any case of this having taken place ?-It has never occurred. We have in Belgium numerous coal and metallic concessions, but especially metallic concessions which are not worked, but the Government has taken no steps towards withdrawing those concessions.

18,810. As a matter of practice a concession once given has never been withdrawn by the Government or by a court of law ?-That is the fact.

18,811. (Mr. Gibbs.) I think I understood you to say that the concession was a property?-That is so. 18,812. I suppose you mean that it is not a property belonging to the concessionnaire, but that it is a real property and an immeuble; is that so?—It is an immeuble.

18,813. It is a real property?—Yes. 18,814. It is the concessionnaire's under the condition of working?—Yes.

18,815. It has not, I understand, been found necessary or desirable to withdraw a concession, but, as a matter of fact, it is a part of the condition that the concessionnaire should work it? Yes, it is a condition.

18,816. It is the same in the Spanish law, as very likely you know. There a man denounces a mine, and it is his so long as he works it, but it reverts to the State without course of law in Spanish countries

if he does not work it. In Belgium, as I understand you, it ceases to be the property of the concessionnaire if he does not work it, in so far as the Government may, by course of law, deprive him of it, only they do not do so?-The concessionnaire who does not work his concession remains concessionnaire so long as the Government has not withdrawn the concession, and, in fact, the Government has never withdrawn it.

18,817. (Mr. Whitmore.) I do not quite understand wby the Government does not exercise this power ?Because generally the concessions which are not worked are without great value.

18,818. (Mr. Gibbs.) In fact, those which are not worked are not worth withdrawing, and those that would be worth it are worked?-We work several concessions which are without great value, and they are worked at some loss. These concessions which are not worked are very bad.

18,819. (Chairman.) They are losing concerns?—

Yes.

18,820. Is the constitution of the Deputation Permanente in Belgium rightly explained in the Summary of the Belgian Mining Law? (See Final Report, Appendix VIII.)-The explanation is not perfectly correct. It says every year the Conseil Provincial elect a committee of six. It is not every year, but every four years; and half of the Deputation Permanente is re-elected every two years. The power of the members of the Deputation is for four years. 18,821. As a matter of practice, does the Conseil Provincial ever overrule the decision of the Deputation Permanente in respect to mining matters ?—The Conseil Provincial has scarcely to occupy itself in mining matters.

18,822. And it does not do so ?-No, the Deputation Permanente makes the decision because it is a matter purely of administration.

18,823. Has a concessionnaire power to give up his concession ?-I think he has not that power. Some concessionnaires have already attempted to give it up because when the concession is not worked, the concessionnaire must, notwithstanding, pay the fixed royalties to Government and the surface owners, because the Government cannot deprive the surface owners of their royalties; in fact, the fixed royalties can never be obliterated. (Appendix C. IX. 8.)

18,824. (Sir William Lewis.) That is the fixed royalty to the surface owner ?-To the surface owner and to the State. In giving a concession, the Government deprives the surface owner of a part of his right, and he is given in return the right of receiving a fixed and a proportional royalty, and the Government has no power to deprive him of that right.

18,825. (Chairman.) Can you tell us what proportion of the total output of coal from Hainaut comes from collieries worked under leases under which royalties are paid to the original concessionnaires?—Yes, we have actually very few leases, and they are in Hainaut only; in the province of Liège there are none. In the first arrondissement of Hainaut three mines are worked under lease. In 1890 the total yield of coal in that district was 4,469,520 tons, and only 436,100 tons were got from mines which were under lease. In the second district there were no mines under lease. In the third there is but one; there have been more, but they have disappeared.

18,826. (Mr. Forster.) Have you the quantity for that one mine ?--No, but I will calculate it out, and send it to the Commission.*

18,827. Can you give us the royalties there, and the other small payments added to the royalties ? No, I cannot now; but I will work the figures out, and let you have them.†

*Monsieur Hubert states that the only mine under lease in the district of Charleroi (province de Hainaut) is a little one depending on the colliery of Marcinello-Nord, where the royalty is 6d. per ton; the total output in 1890 being about 3,160 tons. All the other forfaits in this district have disappeared. The royalties were generally from th toth of the gross product.

+ Monsieur Hubert subsequently wrote that in the year 1888 the total yield of coal from mines under lease in the first district of Hainaut was 457,380 tons. The royalty paid to the concessionnaire was 13,7657. 58. 4d. + 1,0957. 16s. for expenses of superintendence (account of extraction, &c.)

18,829. (Chairman.) You have described in your 15 Dec. 1891. book on mining law, have you not, the action which the Government can take in order to expropriate Method of land required to make communications between mines procedure for expropriating and railways, or other places, for sending the produce land. outside the limits of the concession ?—Yes.

18,830. Is it the custom, or is it the law, that the administration decides those questions, or do they go into the courts of law ?-The administration of mines has never to decide them. That is purely an administrative body, and has no political authority. The political authorities in Belgium are the State, the Province, and the Commune. The mining administration is simply annexed to the Ministry of Agriculture, Industry, and Public Works. When a concessionnaire wishes to have a portion of surface, he must ask the permission of the Government, then the Government consults the administration of mines, and the Deputation Permanente of the Conseil Provincial, and after that the Conseil des Mines, and if these authorities find that the possession of the surface is necessary to the concession, the Goverument can allow the concessionnaire to take the surface, after having heard the proprietor.

18,831. Can the proprietor of the surface, whose land is to be taken from him on the ground of public utility, appeal to a court of law, or not?—No, he

cannot.

18,832. The decision of the Government is final? -Yes, the proprietor can only appeal to a court on the question of the value of the property.

18,833. Not on the question as to whether it is to be taken or not?-No; when it is a question of surface being-within the limits of his concessionabsolutely necessary to the concessionnaire, the concessionaire, with the approbation of the Government, can take the surface without having paid, if he does not agree with the proprietor on the question of the value of the property. If it is a question of a railway to unite the pit to a station, then in that case he can take property out of the limits of his concession, basing himself on the law of public expropriation.

18,834. On the ground of public utility?—Yes. only in this case he must pay before taking absolutely.

18,835. That is within the limits of the concession, Valuation of the concessionnaire can occupy the land at once, and land expay for it afterwards, but without the limits of his propriated. concession he must have public utility declared, and he must pay for the land before he occupies it ?—Yes; and in the second case, for communication ways only.

18,836. He has to pay double the value of the land in the case where he declares public utility, and sometimes more within his concession, I believe ?-It is the same in the two cases, he must pay double the value.

18,837. (Mr. Gibbs.) How is the value determined; do you mean by value of the land its agricultural value, or in what way is it valued; when you say double the value, it must be double of something? -The question of determining the value is a question for a court of law; the administration has never the right of determining its value.

18,838. Does the court of law take into consideration only the agricultural value, or does it take into consideration all the circumstances, position, and other circumstances which give value to land ?-In general a court of law must determine the value before the existence of the mine was known, and not make the worker of the mine suffer by its existence having become known.

18,839. (Sir William Lewis.) It is not to be the value that is given to it by the establishment of a mine, but its value previous to that?—Yes.

18,840. (Mr. Gibbs.) But the value of land in a mining country may be one thing, and the value of iand in a purely agricultural country may be another: what I want to know is whether the court of law takes into consideration the general value of land in a mining country or only the value of the land for

18,841. In the court of law, is the question determined on the evidence of these experts by a jury or by a judge?-By three judges in the primary court, and five in the Court of Appeals.

18,842. Not by a jury?—No.

18,843. The experts, as I understand you, are themselves in a manner the jury, that is to say, they determine as to the facts of the value ?-The experts are chosen by the court, and make a report to the court. Then the parties come before the court and discuss the report of the experts. The court considers the report, but it is not bound to accept it in its entirety, and then decides the question.

18,844. (Chairman.) I suppose the courts of law only interpose when the parties cannot agree between themselves these questions do not always come before a court, I presume?-That is so, it is only in case of disagreement that they come before the court.

Amalgamation 18,845. In Belgium of late years many concessions of concessions. have been amalgamated and joined together, have they not? Yes.

Concessions unworked.

Royalties.

18,846. Has that been found detrimental to the interests of the public? Probably the contrary, probably it is favourable, because the concessions in Belgium were small ones, and amalgamation is favourable to greater production and to economy of working. 18,847. Are all the profitable concessions in Belgium in full work?-Only a portion of them. Certain of the concessions are inactive.

18,848. I am only referring to the concessions which are worth working, I want to know whether any of the people holding those concessions are holding back in their own interests, and not working their coal?-There are none. The concessions not worked are very bad concessions, very poor ones. The concessions which are actually worked are not all rich ones; there are numerous concessions on which money has been lost, not simply in the past year, but for five or more years.

18,849. (Mr. Gibbs.) They rest upon hope?—Yes. 18,850. (Chairman.) Some collieries, I presume, are very much better than others?—Yes.

18,851. And they produce a larger profit than others?-Yes.

18,852. Owing to the difference in their position, and in the nature of the coal which they have to work?—Yes, and to the regularity, or otherwise, of their beds of coal, and the questions of water, fire-damp, and the depth of the mines.

18,853. Have you looked through the summary of the mining law of Belgium which has been prepared? -Yes.

18,854. Could you favour us with any corrections? -Yes, I will send them to you.

18,855. We should be especially obliged if you would check the calculation as regards the incidence per ton of the royalties payable to the State and to the surface owner. The calculation in the summary makes it out for the year 1890 to be about three halfpence per ton on the coal raised, after deducting the quantity consumed in the mine, and we should be glad to know whether that is a fairly accurate calculation? That is an average royalty, because the collieries which have lost do not pay at all.

18,856. (Sir William Lewis.) The collieries that have actually paid royalty pay a very much higher one than the three half-pence ?-Yes.

18,857. This calculation includes a number of collieries that do not pay any royalties at all by reason of their not being profitable ?-That is so.

18,858. (Chairman.) So that this three half-pence would be a low estimate?-Yes. Is the purpose of the Commission to obtain information as to what the

total amount of royalty is per ton at those mines which do pay independently of those which do not pay?

18,859. We should like that information if it is possible to get it without giving you too much trouble ?-I can make that out.

18,860. (Sir William Lewis.) This figure, I take it, has been ascertained by dividing the amount paid by the number of tons worked?-Yes, all the mines pay the fixed royalty on account of the surface, but the proportional royalty is paid only by the mines which gain.

18,861. (Chairman.) The fixed royalty is a very small sum?. Yes, 10 centimes, or a penny per hectare.

18,862. Is there any particular remark you would wish to make to the Commission with respect to this subject? No. If anything suggests itself to me, I will put it in writing.

18,863. (Mr. Jamieson.) I have prepared a list of questions here which I should be glad if you will answer in writing (handing a list of questions to witness)?-I should be glad to do so when I get home. Does the Commission desire to have evidence Compensation not only upon royalties, but upon the charges in funds. connexion with accidents and deaths in the mines? (See Appendix C. IX. 2).

18,864. (Sir William Lewis.) It will be very useful for us to have that information ?-I shall be very happy to supply it then.

18,865. (Mr. Jamieson.) Is it not given in gross on page 9 of the Memorandum?-Those payments are not included in the table. The collieries in our country have special charges for the service of the caisse de prévoyance, for the workmen who are killed or wounded-that charge is relatively heavy. They have also another fund, the caisse de secours.

18,866. That is to relieve those who have suffered from accidents ?-Yes. If the Commission desires it, I can furnish them with information later on that subject

18,867. (Chairman.) If you please?—I will do so. I have brought with me a number of forms which have to be filled up in connexion with the royalty, Admini and I shall be very happy to put them in if the tration. Commission desire it.

18,868. It would be very useful indeed to hav those?—I will hand them in (see Appendix C. IX. 4, 5, 6, 7). One of the papers is filled in for a special mine, but, of course, I have not given the name of the mine.

18,869. This form is the actual statement upon which royalty has been charged upon a particular mine? Yes.

18,870. Has it been compiled by the committee of valuation?-It is given to the committee of valuation and the worker of the mine must prepare a return in this form. This Form (A). (Appendix C. IX. 4) goes before the committee of valuation, after having been signed by the mining engineer and the committee of répartiteurs. The word "répartiteur" is very difficult to explain in English. The répartiteurs are the persons who examine the declarations of persons who contribute in each commune to the tax called patente. After having been signed by the mining engineer and the committee of répartiteurs this Form A. is given to the committee of valuation. That committee is not very well described in the Summary, but I will give complete information to the Commission upon its constitution. The worker of the mine can appeal before the valuation committee against the valuation made by the administration. After the valuation committee has given a decision the worker of the mine can appeal to another functionary-the DirectorProvincial-that is, the Receiver of Taxes. He would have a still further appeal to a court of justice against the contribution and the case can be taken up to the last court of appeal-the Cour de Cassation. All these appeals have been found necessary in order to be able to establish the proper sum which is payable under the circumstances in each case.