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President CRAWFORD. You have heard the secretary's proposal. Are there any other proposals?

Mr. McLogan (Wisconsin). I think the secretary's suggestion that the Canadian Provinces and the American States meet separately and then hold joint sessions is a very good one. I for one would be very much disappointed in seeing a complete separation of the Canadian representatives and the American States' representatives. In that connection, I am heartily in accord with the recommendation of the executive board for meeting at a different time and place from the I. A. I. A. B, C. I am sold on that. Under the present arrangement I do not believe there is time enough, and it does not seem to me there are a great many people who attend both conventions. I believe more really substantial work will come out of each organization meeting by itself.

Mr. DAVIE (New Hampshire). I do not want anything ever to happen that will separate us from our Canadian brothers. Some of the background of this association was built up by the delegates from the Canadian Provinces, and I sincerely hope that, whatever the final action is, we keep in mind that we are not going to allow them to separate from this association. I am highly in accord with the idea of having our association meet separately from the I. A. I. A. B. C.

Mr. PATTON (New York). I think I am chiefly responsible for the movement to have the two bodies meet together. My sole object in doing it was to increase the attendance by reducing the expense and to stimulate interest. It has not resulted in any greater attendance and perhaps no greater interest. I am not opposed to reverting to what, after all, was the original and long-continued practice. I like the secretary's suggestion of having a Canadian section and a United States section, although I am afraid of the idea of separate meetings in alternate years. I do like the idea of a Canadian session and a United States session, to be followed by a joint meeting. In view of the feeling expressed at Asheville last year and also here this year, 1 would not be opposed to reverting to the original practice of meeting separately.

President Crawford. Is there anyone in the meeting who favors continuing the present arrangement?

Mr. ANDREWS (New York). I can see why Dr. Patton advocated the conventions meeting at the same place, but I do not believe that this year, for example, there are many people who attended the other convention and who are staying over for this meeting. It rather troubles my conscience to have to stay away from my office so long, and I must say that sitting in meetings morning and afternoon for 6 days gets tiresome. I think we might well consider holding our meetings separately.

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(Mr. Walling moved that the association go on record as favoring holding its annual conventions at a time separate from the meetings of the I. A. I. A. B. C. Motion seconded and carried.]

(Mr. McLogan moved that the organization remain intact as an international organization, with a Canadian division and a United States division, the Canadian division to meet at the same time and place as the United States division, and these two meetings to be followed by a meeting of the International Association, allowing each division sufficient time to consider its own particular problems before the joint meeting. Motion seconded.]

Mr. Walling. Mr. President, will that meet the objection which you expressed last night, as to the reluctance on the part of the Provinces to come to these meetings, which they feel are devoted almost exclusively to American problems?

President CRAWFORD. I think it would. In the matter of expense, I have never found any difficulty whatever in attending meetings in the States, but I have found a decided objection in some of the Provinces, particularly at this time, when every expenditure must be carefully scrutinized. They say they can get the information, reports, etc., later; but they also say they want a similar organization whero we can discuss our particular problems, and they do wish to share in those State departments' problems which are common to them I have with me correspondence, which will be available to anyone. indicating clearly the desire of the Canadian Provinces. We musi have closer cooperation between the Dominion and Provincial departments and the United States Department of Labor and the State departments. But it is quite apparent that if the Department of Labor in Washington undertakes to give service to the States, it cannot give the same service to the Canadian Provinces. I do not pretend to know at the present time just how such an organization should be worked out in detail. For that reason I suggest that the association come to Toronto next year. It would give an opportunity to discuss the problem fully. I fear that we cannot settle it today. I certainly cannot commit the Provinces to any particular arrangement.

Mr. McLogan. Of course, this organization is in no position to say to the Canadian Provinces that they have to join the Canadian division. I am wondering from your remarks just now whether or not my motion, if it prevailed, would be premature, or, if this motion prevails, if it would leave it open to the Provinces and representatives of the Provinces in Canada to join the Canadian division. If it is your thought that perhaps definite action ought to be delayed until a year later, I am not averse to that. Perhaps we should simply recommend this, though my motion went farther than that.

President Crawford. Speaking for Ontario, I can say that the present arrangement is quite satisfactory so far as we are concerned. We get a great deal from our associations here, but I appreciate that we cannot bring in the Federal Department, particularly in relation to

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the problem of Provincial relationships, without some separation within the organization. Personally, I deem it advisable not to settle this matter here.

Mr. LUBIN. I submit an amendment to Mr. McLogan's motion, so that it will state that this Canadian division be created, and that the Canadian Provinces be invited to join that division—then the problem is entirely up to them.

Mr. WALLING. Would it not be more tactful for us to vote to accept the invitation to meet in Toronto, and then to invite particularly the Canadian Provinces and the Ministry of Labor to meet with us at that time to consider the future organization of the association and how best it can be made effective so far as the Canadian Provinces are concerned? That will give an indication to Canada that we are interested in having them join with us, thus giving them a share in the formulation of our future organization.

Mr. McLOGAN. That thought strikes me as being very good. Suppose we do meet in Toronto and hold a meeting of the representatives of the Dominion and the different Provinces for a day and a meeting of the representatives of the States for a day, and then go into joint session and see what action on a permanent arrangement can be taken by the joint session. It seems to me that if we just meet in Toronto as we are meeting here we will not accomplish as much as we would if the Canadian representatives had a chance to discuss the matter by themselves and then go into joint session.

President CRAWFORD. That is the distinct understanding, that if this association deems it advisable to go to Toronto, and if you are in favor of permitting the Canadian situation to influence a reorganization of the association, then the Provinces intend and have expressed the desire to meet separately for a day or two in Toronto either immediately preceding or immediately followirg the meetings of this association, along with some of you, to consider just how the reorganization can best be brought about for mutual satisfaction. should like very much to see the association meet in Toronto next year and adopt such a plan for its meeting.

Mr. McLogan. It seems to me a better way would be for this Association to say that next year, as an experiment, the representatives of Canada will meet for a day or two and the representatives of the United States will meet for a day or two and discuss their particular problems, and then go into joint session. That will not be such a wide departure from what we have done before. We could say that this is to be an experiment to guide us in our action at Toronto, if we meet there. I should like to make such a motion.

President CRAWFORD. I suggest that next year's meeting take that form, regardless of where it is held.

Mr. ANDREWS. May I say that the New York delegates are hoping that we can induce the association to meet somewhere in New York State-perhaps New York City-next year, but I should be very glad, in the interest of international amity, etc., to second the motion that we have the meeting in Toronto with the plan outlined.

President CRAWFORD. The motion now is that the next year's meeting take the form of a one or two day meeting of the Canadian representatives and a similar meeting of the United States representatives, followed by joint sessions.

(Motion carried.)

(Mr. Lubin suggested that the place of the meeting could be decided at the final business meeting.)

(President Crawford appointed the following convention committees:) Auditing committee.—Major A. L. Fl er, chairman; John W. Nates.

Resolutions committee.-Elmer B. Andrews, chairman; E. I. McKinley, Harry McLogan.

Nominations committee.-W. E. Jacobs, chairman; John Davie, W. A. Pat Murphy.

President CRAWFORD. There were some other items, in connection with the association appointing representatives on the research committees of other organizations. I must confess that until this year I did not know that the association was officially represented on such committees. I think that we should get some definite information from these representatives as to what they have done this year, so that we may feel that we are really cooperating. Merely naming someone to sit on a committee is not, in my opinion, cooperation between two associations. I do not know whether you care to offer suggestions in that connection, but I think it is worthy of consideration. I also suggest-having in mind the possible reorganizationthat this association take an active part in the spreading of information; that we act as a center for distribution of valuable information throughout the whole year. It seems to me that we might make definite use of the Department of Labor in Washington, and that we might make use of the Department of Labor in Ottawa for items of particular interest to Canadians. I suggest that each State and Province in the association name someone to cooperate with the Federal departments in this connection. We receive bulletins, of course, from the Federal Government and State departments, but is there not room for this association actively to participate in this service, so that the membership will know that the association is actually doing something? Or are we satisfied with the present arrangement, whereby our committees work during the year and report to us in our annual conventions? I am just suggesting this for your consideration.

Mr. LUBIN. I might say, in regard to our representation on committees of the American Standards Association, that there is in my


report a summary of the present status of each committee's work. I should like to say, further, that this association has made a very strenuous attempt to secure representation on the electrical standards committee of the National Fire Protection association. That committee deals with standards of electrical equipment. We made application for representation on the theory that State labor commissioners, in view of the fact that they are responsible for the protection of labor within their States, were interested in the types-ofmaterial standards that were formulated because of the fact that the type of materials used by workers affects their health, their safety, and their ability to do their job well. The National Fire Protection Association, on the basis of that analysis, refused us representation on two grounds: (1) That the accident boards as a group were already represented and they were the ones interested; and (2) that the municipal inspectors were represented and they were the people who were watching out for the welfare of labor. Should we continue pressing them for representation on that committee? I should like to have your opinions.

Mr. PATTON. For years it was a standard feature of the annual meetings of this association to have individual reports of members of this association who had served on these committees. These reports were not called for last year nor this year. I represent the Association on the committee on statistics of the American Standards Association, and for years have been on the committee on cranes, hoists, and derricks as a representative of this association. In response to Mr. Lubin's suggestion, I think we ought to press for representation on this committee on electrical standards.

Mr. Walling moved that it was the sentiment of the meeting that the association should be represented on that committee, and that the secretary be instructed to convey that sentiment to the American Standards Association, with the earnest request that the association be represented.

(Motion seconded and carried.)

President CRAWFORD. In connection with the reports, I need only say that in considering the program for this year we were pressed for time. For that reason I am pleased to knorr that we will meet separately next year. We do not have adequate time now properly to consider the reports of the nine standing committees. The work of this association is very broad in scope, and it is of vital importance to departments. I believe that at future meetings we should make provision for such reports to be presented and possibly discussed, in addition to being incorporated in the proceedings, because we cannot do too much to impress upon our own minds the importance of the work of this association. I think anything and everything which can be done to spread the work of this association throughout

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