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Forest Service in Mississippi. They plan and they execute. Any agency for further planning should utilize, as far as possible, the existing Forest Service and Soil Conservation Service. There must be no duplication.

The purpose of planning is advisory. It is to give to the President and to the Congress a complete picture of desirable public improvements in all of the regions of the United States so that all interests in internal public improvements may be properly considered. I know of no better way to promote the public interest in internal improvements than by retaining the honest and efficient Corps of Engineers in all plans and construction for flood control and river and harbor improvements.

I will follow that up, Mr. Chairman, with a brief statement to indicate more specifically our great appreciation for what the Army engineers have done and are doing for our State.

This map here [exhibiting] is a picture of the Yazoo delta from the Mississippi River to the foothills, extending from Memphis down

icksburg at the lower end of the Delta. These little dots [indicating] up here are the original plans provided by Congress in the engineering works to cure the flood problems of the Yazoo system, the Tallahatchie system, the Sunflower, Yakima, and others in that region.

The CHAIRMAN. Is all that work being carried out under the Mississippi River Commission ?

Mr. FOLSE. Yes, sir; I am just getting to that. The green area here is about a million and a half acres that are flooded from the watershed of the Yazoo system. That constitutes the largest drainage problem within the boundaries of one State and is also the worst eroding watershed of any area we know of. The backwater area here [indicating] in the lower part of the Delta is the worst flooded plain, from Cape Girardeau south, and that was at one time the most productive area of the Delta. The Army engineers, on November 11, submitted to the people of these upper counties and the Delta particularly, their modified plan for the control of that problem. They are now building the Sardis Dam, which is the third largest dam, and in their modified plan, they have recommended to the Chief of the Army Engineers the building of the Arkabutia Dam and the Enid Dam, and to cut off some general works. That will solve, in our opinion, completely the internal-flood problems of the Delta.

Now, with regard to reclamation. I said I would not discuss it, but the value of reclamation to us is very fundamental. We have in this great Delta area here, in active operation, some 120 or more drainage districts, but uncoordinated, built there piecemeal, and the extension of the reclamation policies to the South and the balance of the country would bring to us the aid and cooperation of the Bureau of Reclamation for the development of the interior. As you know, now, the limitation of that policy is fixed to the territory west of the one-hundredth meridian, which comes right down through the Dakotas, Nebraska, western Kansas, Oklahoma, and Texas—the western part of those States. There is not any doubt about the value of what has been done there since the inauguration of those policies in 1902, and 12 of those flood projects generate 1,242,000 kilowatt-hours per month. We believe the investment of the Government has been a firm investment, has created great wealth, because it has been a success in the West and a proven utility under Dr. Meade—possibly the greatest man in human engineering this age has witnessed, in my opinion-one of the great men of the Nation. He came into the Delta and always expressed the desire to bring to that area the cooperation his Department had given the West, but was prohibited because of that restriction in the application of the two policies.

As I understand, that is not involved in this bill, but I merely state that for the information of the Congress, and to show the necessity there, and I believe that would meet what, in my opinion, is the fundamental requirement of the Nation to cure the haphazard, happygo-lucky, lack-of-planning that has butchered millions of acres of land in that Great Plains area which we are confronted with a 100,000,000-acre desert, due to the lack of land planning and proper land utilization, and out of 71/2 to 8 million acres in farms in Mississippi 1 million acres have been completely destroyed for agricultural purposes because of erosion, and with 2 million acres of the border land. That is true of all States. Now the people on those eroded hill lands, we want to move them onto the more productive lands of the country and give them an opportunity in industry, or elsewhere, or the Government will have to continue to feed them. The basic resources of the Nation, as the result of lack of planning, a result of a lack of coorclination in all of our effort and proper land utilization, has simply been destroyed in what was once the great productive area of the country, the Great Plains area.

We are ever grateful, down in our State, for the contribution made by the soil-control agencies—the C. C. C. They are doing a great work. One thing I would like to see in this bill, and my committee cannot go into that, but I have stated here, for whatever value it · might be to you, and in keeping with my responsibility as an employee of the State, that it ought to be mandatory—and the record of the two hundred eighty-eight-odd dams in Dr. Bennett's files of the United States Soil Conservation Service, supplementing the Department of Agriculture, fully support this statement—it ought to be made mandatory by Congress that no dam, or no reservoir, can be created unless there is a fundamental program following it up for soil control in the watershed of those dams that reservoir area. There is a record of 288 dams that have been practically destroyed in a period of 25 years as a result of silting. The American Association of Civil Engineers, I think is their title, in their report-and, by the way, I shall get a copy of that report and file it with your committee-in their review of Boulder Dam they estimate there, in 100 years, because of lack of control of the water in the reservoir, that dam will be completely destroyed from silt infiltration, and the weight of the silt gathered there will open up fissures in the earth and probably create another earthquake. We do know, in a smaller way, down at the South Piccolo Dam, the original wall there was completely infiltrated with silt and they put a cap of 10 to 12 feet on that and that has filled up and we took the precaution in the Sardis Dam recently-w- took the position that we had no right to spend the Government's money in erecting the dam unless we took the precauttion to prevent what occurred in all of the other reservoirs, ihat was, to control the movement of the water from the time it struck the ground, down into the reservoir, and on leaving the reservoir and

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going into the river. And following the discussion we appeared before the United States Soil Conservation Service, before Dr. Bennet, and he has, within the past 6 weeks, agreed for the specific treatment of the problems in the watershed of the Tallahatchie River system in the Sardis Reservoir basin.

The CHAIRMAN. From this map showing the large scope of territory to be covered by the works which are now being carried out, I judge the people of Mississippi feel a greater interest in these improvements than they do in the question of hydroelectric power, do they not?

Mr. Folse. Well, we have no hydroelectric power possibilities in our State. The maximum amount of stream flow of all streams is negligible, a total of 75,000 horsepower. We are, however, tremendously interested in the development of the power resources on the Tennessee River. That is a very fundamental thing with us. Eighty-seven percent of our population is rural and, prior to the development of the interconnected power systems in the State, the Mississippi Power Co. on the east side, and the Commonwealth property and Mississippi Power Co. on the west side, represented our power development. Our total power resources, back there as late as 1924, the total power resources in the State, were about 222,000 horsepower, all steam-generated, 65 percent of it utilized by sawmills and practically, all of it utilized, and they could not supply more, because Mississippi has not the power, as you have east in the Carolinas, where we run into a million horsepower and upward. And in order to develop our industry, the position I took in the original development of Muscle Shoals, Mr. Ford's offer, was the State insisted it had a right to a part of that power, and we were in favor of Mr. Ford's offer, provided he would agree to distribute part of that power to the State. So the Tennessee Valley Authority, in the development of the power resources of the Tennessee, today give us full opportunity for the development of industry, which we never had before.

Mr. PARSONS. From which dam do you get the power—Muscle Shoals?

Mr. FoLsE. Yes, sir; and the Pickwick Dam that is being built there.

Mr. PARSONS. You will be closer to the Pickwick Dam when it is completed ?

Mr. FoLSE. Yes, sir. This may not have anything to do with it, but since we are on the question of power and power use, it is a fundamental thing in the life of the South—and what the South is appealing for now is not to get preferential treatment—but we occupy 32 percent of the area of this country, with nearly 35 percent of its population, and unless and until the artificial obstructions which have prevented the development of the South are removed the South cannot discharge its obligations to the Nation. We cannot have a strong nation with 45,000,000 people in economic servitude, and power is the basic fundamental we require. After power, the South is pleading now, through the cooperation of the nine governors, to remove the artificial obstructions which we meet at the Ohio and Potomac Rivers. When we get to the Ohio and Potomac Rivers, relatively, it is harder for us to ship our manufactured goods into that great area up there than it is for Germany, France, or Japan

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to get into our ports. A 40-percent differential exists against the South without any economic justification whatever, put there and kept there; and from 1880 to 1930 from my own State, and my adopted State of Mississippi, 612,000 people left that State for other parts of the country; 10,000,000 left the South, and in this very city there are young men working who came out of the South looking for an opportunity.

We have spent millions of dollars to educate the youth of our State, and because of the artificial obstructions they have maintained, they have been forced to leave our State and go where the opportunities were; 612,000 of them left our State in 50 years and 10,000,000 left the South. You cannot find a State in America today that does not have in some division of its leadership southern-born men or women. And we are not appealing for these things because of what it would mean to the South, but because of what it would mean to the Nation, by permitting the South to discharge its responsibilities and to lift its people to a higher place in the social and economic affairs of the Nation. Our Governor made the fight of his life and, in my opinion, the only contribution that has been made by any Governor to the real fight of the State; that is, an opportunity to lift our people from a condition where they are now compelled to look to the central Government; where, instead of being independent, they are dependent because of these restrictions.

Nir. COLMER. You refer, Mr. Folse, of course, to the freight differential, do you not!

Mr. FOLSE. I am referring to the freight differentials and improvising on the necessity to distribute power by the Tennessee Authority in the development of power, because that is the basic thing in the building of industry; and, in the building of industry, we must have equality in the distribution of our goods, and we have not got equality now.

Mr. DONDERO. What artificial barriers do you have in mind ?

Mr. FOLSE. I understood the chairman to suggest that the time of the committee was limited and, for that reason, I was hurrying; but, if you gentlemen will permit, I will cite one illustration. I have the record here.

There is another thing relating to this very thing. From 1930 to 1935 there was an increase of 4,746,000 population in the country; 60 percent of that took place in the South. You have not a city outside the South of 100,000 people that can sustain its own population. But let us get back to a specific answer. From Boston, Mass., to Toledo, Ohio, 759 miles, the first-class rate is $1.30. From Grenada to Toledo, 749 miles, 10 miles less, the rate is $1.85.

Mr. DONDERO. I think I get your point. It is the increased freight rate.

Mr. FOLSE. It goes further than that. There is a penalty of 40 percent, because the man who operates an industry in the South must buy his raw products in the open markets. That is the answer to the statement by people who talk about low wages in the South. We do not want low wages. We do not want any industry in the South that does not pay decent wages, but the industries that are there, in order to keep in business at all and in order to move their commodities, must absorb the difference between a fair level of rates

and that 40-percent differential, and the only way we can absorb it is to reduce the rate of pay to the man who produces the goods. We have to buy our products in the open market and we cannot absorb the differential except by keeping the wage level down and, in keeping the wage level down, we keep the buying power down and keep the standards down. And yet—and there is nothing sectional in the appeal, and nobody with any intelligence pays any attention to the sectional gossip that is going on, but we think in the South if the people of the North would only recognize that the South is the greatest potential market in the world for the products of the North, we are going to change the situation. We are always going to be agricultural down there and create the cotton for the people to operate the machinery in the north.

Mr. SCHULTE. The gentleman referred there to decent wages in the South. What would you say would be a decent wage in the State of Mississippi?

Mr. FOLSE. I will answer that question by saying this, that the limitation imposed upon industry today in the South to pay wages, whatever a proper level might be found to be, after an investigation, is to the extent only to keep people employed at all, we have to absorb the differential, which is approximately 40 percent added to the cost of transportation when we get to the Ohio or Potomac Rivers. We come along on a level and get to those rivers and come into that elevated plane where they impose that differential on our industry.

Mr. SCHULTE. The artificial barrier you referred to in your report there is the freight rate; is that right?

Mr. FOLSE. Yes, sir. Mr. SCHULTE. And would not be the wage level ? Mr. Folse. If we would eliminate the freight rate, the arbitrary adjustment in freight rates against the South, then southern industry could increase the wage scale. That is all we are limited by now in the wage scale.

Mr. BARDEN. Instead of labor getting the 40 percent now the railroads get the 40 percent?

Mr. FoLsE. Yes, sir.

Mr. COLMER. There would not be and could be no objection to the so-called wage-and-hour legislation so far as the particular section for which you speak is concerned, if it were not for this freight differential; is that true?

Mr. FOLSE. I would not be prepared to say that. But I will say this, and that is a fact: I have been identified with our problem for 25 or more years down there and I repeat that here is one-third of the area of our great country with 34.7 percent of its population, with 60 percent of the basic raw products of the country, and our people are poor, and they are poor because they have been restricted in their development. We have been the reservoir for the manpower and material for the Nation and Mr. Eastman, a Boston Yankee, a good friend of the South, he is on the commission. I wish every Member of Congress would get Mr. Eastman's report. He has made a case for us. He says we are entitled to an adjustment; and yet are are told an investigation would take from 2 to 3 to 5 years. We do not see any necessity for it, if one commissioner, from his own investigation, and from the records before him, can reach that conclusion. If the South can have that obstruction removed, the South

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