did not advise the Weather Bureau on whether or not this data met the requirements of the Navy and the work was subsequently discontinued because it apparently was not being used by the Navy which did not state further requirements for it.

The Weather Bureau can again produce these charts for the Navy but would require about 12 months to obtain the capabilities to do so. Mr. BROOKS. Well, Doctor, we had about 14 copies of general weather forecast charts prepared at various times dated by the Navy in Monterey and these charts are the weather conditions existing at sea and heights of, I think, about 30,000 feet, and your feeling is that all but 4 of them are either a basic product of the Meteorological Center or could be produced without additional personnel?

Dr. CRESSMAN. That is correct, sir.

Mr. BROOKS. According to information we have obtained from the Navy in Monterey, certain specialized types of forecasts are prepared by the Navy on which this subcommittee would like to have your views.

Hourly typhoon forecasts are prepared predicting the positions of typhoons or hurricanes in the Northern Hemisphere. We understand that these forecasts are sent to the Navy's Fleet Weather Central in Guam. Does the Weather Bureau now make similar forecasts?

Dr. CRESSMAN. Mr. Chairman, the Weather Bureau has made and transmitted forecasts of this type to military installations since 1959, with the exception of 1960 when there was a change made in the Weather Bureau's computing equipment. The Weather Bureau is now currently sending regular forecasts of typhoon positions to the Navy's Fleet Weather Central on Guam.

Mr. BROOKS. Doctor, the Navy prepares forecasts of current and predicted positions for cyclones in the Northern Hemisphere. According to the Navy such forecasts are not prepared by the Weather Bureau. These forecasts are also sent to the Fleet Weather Central in Guam. Can the Weather Bureau produce the same type of forecasts?

Dr. CRESSMAN. The Weather Bureau does not issue separate forecasts of this type but does include the same information in facsimile maps and teletype transmissions that are widely distributed to military agencies and other users.

Mr. BROOKS. The Navy prepares 24-hour forecasts of low-level winds and pressure for certain locations. Does the Weather Bureau have the capability to make this kind of forecast?

Dr. CRESSMAN. Mr. Chairman, the Weather Bureau has been sending forecasts for many levels in a similar format to the Air Force, Weather Bureau, and some foreign governments for years. The remainder are distributed in map form by facsimile and fulfill all requirements laid upon the Weather Bureau for this type of forecast. Mr. BROOKS. The Navy prepares 24-hour forecasts of winds over the Pacific at heights of about 18,000 feet for flight planning and classified missions. These forecasts, I understand, are sent to the Fleet Weather Central at Pearl Harbor. Can the Weather Bureau make similar forecasts?

Dr. CRESSMAN. Mr. Chairman, the Weather Bureau has been making these forecasts on a nearly hemispheric basis for years. In cooperation with the Air Force, the Weather Bureau has also been making complete flight plans for Air Force use.

Mr. BROOKS. The Navy prepares long wave forecasts for strengths of zonal winds at altitudes of about 18,000 feet which provide information concerning large-scale weather patterns. Does the Weather Bureau produce similar information to this?

Dr. CRESSMAN. The Weather Bureau prepared similar charts for the Navy but discontinued these when the fleet numerical weather facility was established by the Navy at Monterey due to lack of a further statement of requirements by the Navy. The Weather Bureau can prepare the program for this type of information on demand at very short notice.

Mr. BROOKS. The subcommittee has obtained some information concerning certain weather forecasting techniques used by the Navy in Monterey, and we would like to have your views as to whether the Weather Bureau uses or utilizes similar techniques in preparing weather forecasts? That is the weather forecasting techniques used by the Navy in Monterey.

Dr. CRESSMAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. BROOKS. The Navy indicated, you know, that in the most. recent report to the Joint Meteorological Group of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the Weather Bureau Computer Group at Suitland stated that no computer processing or surface forecast reports and no plans for surface analyses or forecasts were made by the Weather Bureau. The Navy also emphasized then that the Weather Bureau had done little if any work in the area of data gathering, analyzing, and forecasting of surface information. Do you have any comment with respect to the information furnished to us by the Navy?

Dr. CRESSMAN. Yes, sir. The Weather Bureau has been preparing surface forecasts by computing since 1956. These have not been made generally available because we find that experienced forecasters can improve upon these, which we do. It is our policy to issue the best possible finished product.

Now, Mr. Chairman, I should like to quote briefly from the last report made to the Joint Meteorological Group to state precisely what was said.

On this subject I shall quote:

We have, in fact, exerted special effort in our attempts to improve the surface prognoses this winter. Dr. Reed, visiting us from the University of Washington this year, has developed an objective surface numerical prediction. * * *

I said further on:

These predictions have been supplied regularly to the prognostic analysts and have proved to be of considerable assistance in the preparation of the surface forecasts.

Mr. BROOKS. The Navy advised us, Doctor, through the General Accounting Office, testimony before them, that 30 man-years would be required to reach their level in automatic processing of surface information.

Dr. CRESSMAN. Mr. Chairman, the Weather Bureau has avoided. duplication of the development program conducted at Hartford by a contractor under the common airway weather service development program of the FAA, Air Force, and Weather Bureau. Only a few weeks ago we obtained from this contractor the program for processing surface airway weather reports by computing. This will run on our computer and is essentially complete.

Mr. BROOKS. The Navy uses computer methods for preparing its charts now. According to them the Weather Bureau uses both hand and computer methods. These two allegedly cannot be meshed operationally and be effective. What are your views on this?

Dr. CRESSMAN. The Weather Bureau uses both machine products. and computer products in combining computer and manual operations. Each product is produced by the method or combination of methods which yields the most accurate results. The meshing of the methods are smooth and the procedures are flexible.

Mr. BROOKS. Doctor, the Navy informed us that its Monterey facility developed the first operational program in the world for hemispheric numerical analyses and forecasts. Has the Weather Bureau developed or utilized a similar program?

Dr. CRESSMAN. I think, Mr. Chairman, the Navy has been splitting hairs. The Weather Bureau has published reports of operational programs for essentially hemispheric numerical analyses and forecasts before the Monterey facility of the Navy was established.

Mr. BROOKS. We have obtained, Doctor, information from the Navy at Monterey that the Lawrence Radiation Laboratories of the Atomic Energy Commission in Livermore, Calif., has made. comparisons of the consistency of the atmospheric analyses prepared by the Weather Bureau and by Monterey.

The AEC laboratory has requested operational access to the Monterey analyses for their work at Livermore to make certain wind and fallout predictions for the next 2 years. The use of the Monterey information would indicate that AEC considers it more reliable than information that can be obtained from the Weather Bureau. wonder if you would like to comment on this?

I

Dr. CRESSMAN. Yes, sir. The Weather Bureau was contacted about the use of Weather Bureau programs by the Lawrence Radiation Laboratories. We advised them that our Weather Bureau programs were at the disposal of the laboratories and suggested that the Weather Bureau and the Radiation Laboratories cooperate in making the necessary calculations. We were informed that they would think over our proposal. No further contact has been made by the laboratory. I do not believe that we were requested to furnish atmospheric analyses to them for comparison with information obtained from the Navy at Monterey. The Weather Bureau has the capabilities to make fallout predictions on short notice.

Mr. BROOKS. Now, the Navy has developed programs and is now supplying steering computations for the Navy's hurricane forecasters. Can the Weather Bureau supply this information to the Navy?

Dr. CRESSMAN. Mr. Chairman, the Weather Bureau is and has been doing so for several years.

Mr. BROOKS. This subcommittee has obtained certain information relative to the cost of operating the Navy's fleet numerical weather facility at Monterey. During fiscal year 1962 the Navy acquired automatic data processing equipment at a cost of $1,135,000. Budget information pertaining to the Navy facility indicates that the cost of its operation amounts to about $1 million a year. There are 58 employees involved in the Monterey operation-31 military personnel and 27 civilian personnel. In addition, the Navy has hired 10 people to be used during the summer. We understand that the Navy is planning a new building at Monterey that will cost about $120,000

to house the weather forecasting facility. If the Weather Bureau could meet essentially all of the Navy's requirements for weather information, how much, if any, additional staff would be required by the Weather Bureau?

Dr. CRESSMAN. We believe that most of the necessary extra work now done at Monterey could be performed by the Weather Bureau with the addition of very little staff. However, there is certain research work being done by the Navy in Monterey which should be continued by that organization. The Weather Bureau should not try to absorb this research work. I would also not recommend that the Weather Bureau engage in much of the special oceanographic work done by Monterey or any effort be made by the Weather Bureau to meet the unique requirements of the fleet or other Navy operational

users.

Mr. BROOKS. Doctor, according to the cost information that we have available, retention of the research activities by the Navy at Monterey would amount to about $250,000 of the $1 million presently being expended for operation of the entire facility in Monterey. It seems pretty obvious to me that there exists a substantial amount of duplication of meteorological effort by the Navy which can be and ought to be eliminated. The Weather Bureau now has the basic responsibility, Governor, as I understand it, to provide all common weather services centrally; it is recognized that there is a need for specialized weather data to augment this basic weather data for possible strategic and tactical air and sea missions but it seems evident that significant savings can accrue to the Government if military agencies would use the basic weather data now being provided and which must be continued to be provided by the Weather Bureau and limit their own endeavors to the field of weather forecasting to supplement the basic weather data to the extent necessary to meet their specialized requirements.

I wondered if that is a sort of an analysis that occurred to you, Governor?

Mr. HODGES. I would say, Mr. Chairman, it would seem to me you have a gold mine for inquiry.

Mr. BROOKS. That's what it looked like when we first hit that one, sir.

Do the other committee members have any questions on this?

I see some Navy personnel here and it may be that later on they may want to submit some information.

Mr. WALLHAUSER. Well, my question, Mr. Chairman, relates more to the budget request, Mr. Secretary. A large part of your budget is in the Weather Bureau, quite a substantial amount, and the Subcommittee on Appropriations recommended and the Congress adopted a cut of $8 million in this budget.

Is there any explanation as to why your budget request apparently, to at least the Subcommittee on Appropriations, seemed so high or out of line?

Mr. HODGES. I think Dr. Cressman may be able to answer more specifically. Basically, when I made my statement a while ago, I think that this kind of inquiry is good for all of us; I don't care whether it's the Navy, the Department of Commerce, or all of us. I think there is a great duplication in Government.

I have been raising a question about oceanography, I don't know what it is, but I know everybody is doing it, but they say they have

finally got that pretty well lined up. I think the same thing should be done on weather wherever possible, basically with the satellite launchings and the programs along those lines, Mr. Wallhauser, I think we are going to be talking about big money in Weather Bureau for quite some time to come.

Mr. WALLHAUSER. They took off $5 million in meteorological satellite operations.

Dr. CRESSMAN. Mr. Wallhauser, I'm sorry to say that the general budget of the Weather Bureau is not in my field of specialization and I don't feel I should try to answer that question.

Mr. PRINCE. The major portion of that, Mr. Congressman, was in the satellite program.

Mr. WALLHAUSER. What had you envisioned that the Subcommittee on Appropriations didn't agree with?

Mr. PRINCE. I'm not prepared to answer directly, but my suspicion is that this is a question of how much you can use at this particular time rather than

Mr. BROOKS. Would you give us a short written statement prepared in that form?

Mr. HODGES. What we asked for and they granted.

Mr. KLOTZ. We did not ask for restoration of that $5 million item. Mr. WALLHAUSER. You are satisfied, in other words, that the

Mr. HODGES. It's a matter of timing primarily, Mr. Wallhauser, whether you can spend it profitably now. I hate to mislead you, I think you are going to have lots of requests for weather appropriations.

Mr. WALLHAUSER. All right, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. BROOKS. Mr. Schweiker?

Mr. SCHWEIKER. No questions.

Mr. BROOKS. Doctor, I understood you did agree with me that the cost of the Monterey operation was about a million dollars and that if the research is about $250,000 then the Weather Bureau could take over the remaining $750,000 of work with a relatively small staff increase?

Dr. CRESSMAN. Mr. Chairman, I don't have any figures concerning the budget at Monterey beyond what you have just supplied to me. However, it is clear to me that the-what we consider to be the necessary extra work which would be imposed upon the Weather Bureau under your suggestion could be accomplished with a relatively small

staff.

Mr. BROOKS. Now I would like to go to another subject which will not take long, an interesting one, which is challenging to this country which concerns the input and output on automatic data processing equipment.

We certainly appreciate Dr. Cressman coming down and presenting his views to us on the previous subject.

Mr. Secretary, would you like to take a 5-minute break?
Mr. HODGES. No, sir.

AUTOMATIC DATA STANDARDIZATION

Mr. BROOKS. On the subject of automatic data processing equipment, this subcommittee has been vitally concerned for quite some time with the many problems incident to the increased utilization of automatic data processing equipment by Government agencies. The