Mr. Brown, will you sit there, and Mr. Carson and Mr. Iversonn. I might swear all three of you at the same time, if you would stand and raise your right hand. Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God? Mr. BROWN. I do. Mr. CARSON. I do. Mr. IVERSONN. I do. Mr. BROOKS. Be seated, gentlemen. PHOTOS SHOW FLIGHT SAFETY VIOLATIONS We have a series of pictures here taken in the cockpit of commercial transport aircraft while in flight, showing pilots asleep, reading girlie magazines and permitting hostesses to take over aircraft controls. I want to ask later for some comments from the Administrator of the FAA, but at this time I would like to ask you, Mr. Carson, to advise the subcommittee of your address and your occupation. REPRESENTATIVE PHOTOGRAPHS OF THOSE TAKEN BY "KIT" CARSON, FLIGHT ENGINEER WITH EASTERN AIR LINES DURING REGULAR SCHEDULED COMMERCIAL FLIGHTS REPRESENTATIVE PHOTOGRAPHS OF THOSE TAKEN BY "KIT" CARSON, FLIGHT ENGINEER WITH EASTERN AIR LINES DURING REGULAR SCHEDULED COMMERCIAL FLIGHTS-Continued TESTIMONY OF RONALD A. BROWN, PRESIDENT, FLIGHT ENGINEERS' INTERNATIONAL ASSOCIATION; ACCOMPANIED BY GLEN B. IVERSONN, ATTORNEY; AND D. K. CARSON, EASTERN AIR LINES FLIGHT ENGINEER Mr. CARSON. My address is 14 Bishop Lane, Hicksville, N.Y., and my occupation is flight engineer for Eastern Air Lines. Mr. BROOKS. I show you these 39 pictures which are displayed here, which were taken inside a commercial aircraft in flight and ask whether you can identify them. Mr. CARSON. I can. They are the pictures that I have taken personally. Mr. BROOKS. You took them where? Mr. CARSON. I took them personally. Mr. BROOKS. On board Eastern? Mr. CARSON. Yes, sir. If I may, sir Mr. BROOKS. Yes, sir? Mr. CARSON. I am not accustomed to appearing before committees. Mr. BROOKS. You just go right on and tell whatever is the truth about this situation, and nobody is interested in bringing any discredit on you at all. Mr. CARSON. I have a very short statement that I had prepared personally, even without the help of Mr. BROOKS. Well, you go on and make it. I have not seen it. Mr. CARSON. The day the story broke regarding the pictures in question being turned over to the Federal Aviation Agency, at the insistence of the Agency, the London Express telephoned our union office and said: "I say, this is a bit of a shock." The next day an Air India flight engineer stopped by our picket line-I think you are all aware that we are on strike-and said, "It is about time. Our people have been taught to admire your country's democracy, and I could not have believed the things that have happened to the American flight engineers if I had not seen them with my own eyes." The point is that many in this country and in others are watching these proceedings and other proceedings that might follow, are watching these proceedings because it represents more than an aviation problem. In essence, it amounts to this: Does a small group of people who believe with all their heart in a cause have a chance in America against a big-money, big union, and what we consider the big influence that they admittedly wield? The question you have put to me is: Are the pictures authentic? By that I must assume you mean: Were they taken in flight or were they posed in a simulator or on the ground, as some have suggested? "PICTURES TAKEN IN FLIGHT” My answer to that is that the pictures were taken in flight, on airplanes in scheduled passenger flight. The pictures themselves, I should like to say, were not taken to embarrass the individual pilots involved. As a matter of fact, it is my personal opinion that it would be unfair to name names because the people who appear in the pictures are but a symbol of our industry. Making an example of these few would not only be unfair, but it would not put an end to the system that has created the problem. Mr. BROOKS. Are these all the pictures that you took? Mr. CARSON. These are all the pictures basically that I could identify or come close to identifying. The process of cataloging was very difficult. Br. BROOKS. Over what period of time did you take these pictures, Mr. Carson? Mr. CARSON. From mid-1959 to the seventh month of 1961. Mr. BROOKS. In your opinion, do they indicate a routine situation or is this a unique situation insofar as commercial aircraft operations are concerned to which you have a personal knowledge? VIOLATIONS COMMON ENOUGH TO "RAISE CONCERN" Mr. CARSON. It is sufficiently common to raise concern, sir. Mr. BROOKS. After taking these pictures, did you at any time show any of them to any official at Eastern Air Lines prior to their publication a few weeks ago? Mr. CARSON. No, we did not. Mr. BROOKS. Has your action in taking these pictures, together with their subsequent publication or partial publication, in any way affected your employment with Eastern? I mean aside from your current situation. Mr. CARSON. My current situation is I am on strike, and I have no idea of what my position is with Eastern Air Lines at the present time. Mr. Moss. Mr. Chairman? Mr. BROOKS. Mr. Moss? Mr. Moss. Mr. Carson, you took these from mid-1959 to July of 1961, covering a period of 2 years? Mr. CARSON. That is right. Mr. Moss. During this time I assume that you were continuously employed as a flight engineer on these flights, is that correct? Mr. CARSON. That is right. Mr. Moss. Does the conduct depicted here comport with the rules and regulations of the FAA or its predecessor antecedent agency? Mr. CARSON. I would say not, but I am certainly not a lawyer. Mr. Moss. As an employee and a licensed officer of a commercial aircraft, was this conduct in keeping with what your understanding of rules and regulations of the Agency were at that time? Mr. CARSON. No, sir. Mr. Moss. Did you at any time during this period file any kind of complaint either with the Agency or the carrier? Mr. CARSON. No, sir. Mr. Moss. Why not? Mr. CARSON. Well, I think, to understand the situation, you have to go back and see what has happened. I did not initiate the project. Mr. Moss. Mr. Carson, let me say that the Congress has been very busy these past few weeks, and I was not aware we would have this subject until I arrived here this morning. I want to state complete agreement with the concern expressed by my chairman. I, too, fly a great deal. These pictures are disturbing to me. Mr. CARSON. Yes, sir. Mr. Moss. Your failure to either report them to the carrier from the time you first became aware of this type of conduct or to the Agency equally disturbs me. What motivation was there for taking these pictures? What was the objective? Mr. CARSON. This is what I started to describe, sir. The project was initiated on another airline, and the thinking behind the project was the fact that the airlines had under the threat of labor trouble from the Airline Pilots Association agreed to put a third pilot on new jet aircraft. The thinking of the people who initiated this thing was that if one pilot could sleep, read, or otherwise occupy himself with duties not related to flying the aircraft, it seemed obvious to us that a third pilot was not necessary. We were not alone in this thinking, as several managements expressed the opinion that a crew composed of captain, pilot, and the flight engineers who were then doing the work was sufficient. The opinions of the company eventually gave way to the pressure of the Airline Pilots Association, and it became apparent that at some time in the future we might have to prove the point, and the only way we could do this, accomplish this, was by pictures. Mr. Moss. I want to be completely fair to you. You are telling me that this was a calculated policy, gathering evidence to be used at some undetermined future date? Mr. CARSON. That is right. Mr. Moss. For the purpose of negotiating a labor contract? Mr. CARSON. In justifying our position on the aircraft, yes, sir. Mr. Moss. You stated in your opening statement your concern over this operational format which certainly raises grave concerns in the mind of any passenger as to his safety. Therefore, you were concerned with the safety of the passenger and of the aircraft, is that correct? Mr. CARSON. Yes, sir. Mr. Moss. It is most difficult for me to believe that where you had these pictures in your possession and intimate and detailed knowledge of this conduct for a period of 2 years, during which you undertook to secure the evidence, and an additional year before you made a public disclosure, that at no point did you or apparently your organization undertake by complaint to appropriate authority, either corporate or governmental, to bring about a correction of what is, in your opinion and, if true, certainly in mine, a rather shocking situation. Mr. CARSON. Well, sir, let me say this: that it was brought to the attention, as I started to point out, this project was started on another airline, and it was brought to the attention of the chairman of the board of that airline. Mr. Moss. Was it brought to the attention of the appropriate Federal agency with legal jurisdiction and responsibility for air safety? Mr. CARSON. I do not know. Mr. Moss. Did you act to bring it to their attention? Mr. CARSON. No, sir. Mr. Moss. You did not act to bring it to their attention? Mr. CARSON. No, sir. Mr. BROOKS. Let me pick up here now. Had you reported this to Eastern, what do you think would have occurred a year ago? Mr. CARSON. We have had meetings with Eastern Air Lines over violation of their operating procedures. Mr. Brown can give you more information on that. At one time I was involved personally with a meeting with Mr. MacIntyre in which we complained about the failure to comply with the operational procedures as prescribed in the FAA manual, and Mr. MacIntyre's attitude was "So what?" I cannot express it in any other way. Mr. BROOKS. What I want to point out-who is Mr. MacIntyre? Well, can you describe for the committee any other laxities in cockpit operations that you noticed but of which you did not take photographs? Or, to rephrase it, have you seen any other evidence that people in the cockpit, or on the flight deck, did not observe the safety precautions of both the airline and the FAA? Mr. CARSON. I think if I searched my memory, I could, yes, sir. 89028-62-pt. 7-8 |