Total combined expenditures of National Park Service and Bureau of Public Roads for parkways-Roads and trails major and minor programs

NOTE. The administrative costs are not all-inclusive in that they do not present certain NPS expenditures which are charged to a general administrative expense appropriation and which cannot be identified because of accounting system limitations.

Expenditures incurred by the Bureau of Public Roads and the National Park Service for parkway and major road construction projects

NOTE 1.-The amount of Park Service engineering and administrative costs was determined by prorating the total of such costs incurred by the Park Service between major and minor road projects on the basis of total construction expenditures, except as noted below.

NOTE 2.-There are certain additional costs incurred by the Park Service for advance planning and administration. Because of Park Service accounting system limitations, the advance planning costs cannot be allocated between major and minor park road projects; the additional administrative costs are charged to an overall Park Service general and administrative expense appropriation and cannot be identified.

Expenditures incurred by the National Park Service for minor parkways and minor roads and trails construction projects

NOTE.-There are certain costs shown above incurred under an advance planning category. Because of NPS accounting system limitations, these costs cannot be allocated between the major and minor park road programs.

Bureau of Public Roards: Region 15, Falls Church, Va., personnel at June 30, 1962

Mr. BROOKS. Could the Bureau of Public Roads assume construction responsibility for the minor park roads and trails program? Mr. WHITTON. Yes, sir; I think we could. I would like to say in connection with that, I think that the part that we assume responsibility for, the type of roads that we assume responsibility for, should be that type of work that could be let by contract. I mean by that that there is work done on trails that could be done with a type of maintenance equipment, highway maintenance equipment. Some work is not always-speaking from experience back at my home now readily and efficiently done by contractors. Some is too light i work. So I wouldn't want to say that we could take over all the work. I will say that we could efficiently take over the work that could be done by contract, in which specifications and quantities can be arrived at.

Mr. BROOKS. Any blacktop work or major dirt work?

Mr. WHITTON. Yes; that is what I am talking about. Ditch cleaning and reshaping of an old road is sometimes easier done more cheaply by maintenance equipment that the Park Service would have readily available because they do maintain these roads after construction.

Mr. BROOKS. Certainly the major part of it, though, would fall into the category of contract work, dollarwise?

Mr. WHITTON. I would assume so, yes.

Mr. BROOKS. If the transfer were made, do you believe that the increased efficiency brought about by consolidation of park road construction duplications in the Bureau would result in a net saving in administrative and engineering costs?

Mr. WHITTON. I think it should, yes, sir.

Mr. BROOKS. Could you give me an estimate of what you think that might save?

Mr. WHITTON. No, sir, I just don't have any basis for an estimate. Mr. BROOKS. There is no doubt about there being substantial savings, though?

Mr. WHITTON. I feel that there should be savings, yes, sir.

Mr. BROOKS. Considering the entire Park Service road construction program for all parkways and park roads and trails, it would then be your conclusion that if construction responsibility were transferred to Public Roads, there would be a significant savings brought about through consolidation of effort, policies, organizations, equipment, and facilities?

Mr. WHITTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BROOKS. Based on information that has been submitted to the subcommittee by the National Park Service, 346 Park Service employees are involved with a total road construction program conducted by the National Park Service, exclusive of certain administrative positions not subject to exact identification. While a segment of these employees would possibly have to be retained in order to undertake the basic planning and review that would be essential to the Park Service maintaining control over design, it would appear that the services of most of these employees could be dispensed with to the extent they would be surplus to the increased needs of the Bureau of Public Roads.

Does that follow your line of reasoning?

Mr. WHITTON. If the Bureau of Public Roads takes on additional work, and the engineering and the survey of these minor roads, I would assume we would require some additional help. I would not assume that we would require any additional supervision. Do I make myself clear?

Mr. BROOKS. No. If you are administering $3.2 billion, a total of $5 billion, I would think that you could probably phase-in to your existing operation a very small percentage of that operation, being $31 million worth.

Mr. WHITTON. Most of it, I think we could. But, you see, for most of this $3.2 billion, the engineering is done by the highway departments. We only do the engineering, we in the Bureau of Public Roads, in the State parks and public lands, so that amount, that cost is not as great as the one

Mr. BROOKS. The only engineering cost that would be added in, as I understand it, would be that-for minor roads.

Mr. WHITTON. Minor roads.

Mr. BROOKS. Which would be a less expensive engineering process. Mr. WHITTON. That is right. But I wouldn't want to say that we could do it with the same force. I would say we could save money.

Mr. BROOKS. This is in essence the manner in which the Bureau of Public Roads has been carrying out the road building requirements

of the Bureau of Land Management, the Department of the Interior, for many years, isn't it?

Mr. WHITTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BROOKS. Do you feel that that has been a wise and efficient program?

Mr. WHITTON. Yes, sir. We seem to have satisfied those other agencies. And we have had no difficulty with the Park Service on the work that we are doing. We have had some arguments about design. They have one viewpoint and we have another, and we usually come to agreement.

Mr. BROOKS. Such as crossing creeks?

Mr. WHITTON. Yes, and cutting trees.

Mr. BROOKS. Cutting trees right in the middle of the road. Do they cut them down?

Mr. WHITTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BROOKS. Assuming that the parkway as well as the major and minor park road construction funds were transferred to the Bureau of Public Roads, do you envision any problem relative to the Park Service retention of basic control over the design of these projects?

COULD BLEND GOALS

Mr. WHITTON. No, sir. I think the Park Service has their goals to accomplish, and I am in accord with them. We have our goals to accomplish. We want to build a safe highway and we want to build an efficient highway. I think that they can be adequately and efficiently blended to where we can accomplish, reasonably accomplish both goals.

Mr. BROOKS. Where they can be safe, efficient, as well as exceedingly picturesque?

Mr. WHITTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BROOKS. Assuming that the responsibility for Park Service road construction were transferred in toto to the Bureau of Public Roads, would you be willing to agree that design of Park Service parkways and roads would without question remain under the control of the Park Service, provided the Bureau of Public Roads view as to safety and utility were considered?

Mr. WHITTON. Yes, sir.

Mr. BROOKS. Do you believe an arrangement such as this can be worked out by mutual agreement between-getting back to you, Mr. Klotz, right now-the Secretaries of Commerce and Interior, or do you feel that the problem must be resolved by legislation, sir?

Mr. WHITTON. I thought you were going to ask Mr. Klotz that. Mr. KLOTZ. I am usually an optimist, Mr. Chairman, but I am not sure that I can view this question with quite my usual optimism. Any transfer of a substantial activity from one department to another can of course be accomplished by agreement, but it is usually agreement after many months and sometimes years of negotiation. I think that the Bureau of the Budget would have to be brought into it.

I would certainly say, Mr. Chairman, that I will suggest to Secretary Hodges that he have a little conference with Secretary Udall and that he bring the matter up. What degree of success we will have is another question. (Discussion off the record.)

Mr. BROOKS. I can't help but believe that when less than 1 percent of the work is done by the Department of Commerce, by a special agency designed to do nothing but that type of work, that it couldn't be done, as he said, with substantial savings to the Government and with full recognition, which he is in accord with with the Secretary of the Interior and possibly with the National Park Service, of maintaining, as far as feasibly possible, the scenic and picturesque grandeur of the country in which we will be building these roads.

Mr. KLOTZ. It may be very easily settled. We will certainly look into it.

Mr. BROOKS. Mr. Wallhauser?

Mr. WALLHAUSER. Mr. Whitton, the compelling purpose of your Department in building public roads under the Interstate Highway System is to build the safest road, the most efficient road at the least possible cost, is it not? And you therefore scrutinize the road projection of the State highway department that has made the projection as carefully as your limited personnel will allow.

Mr. WHITTON. Yes, sir.

My

Mr. BROOKS. Which isn't very close sometimes, perhaps. question relates to this: I can see the problem with the National Park Service wanting a particular design and the Bureau of Public Roads wanting to build a more or less direct line at a lesser cost in great conflict. My questions, then, specifically is: How far could you go in agreeing to allow the National Park Service to have control of design?

Mr. WHITTON. I think it is a mutual matter and each one-I don't think I can sit here today and set up a hard and fast rule of what we would do in the Bureau of Public Roads. I think each problem becomes an individual problem of its own, and I would hope that our people in the field could solve most of them, and come to agreement on what should be done in a particular park, or in a particular area, as to how the road should be built and how wide it should be, what the curvature should be and where it should be located.

Failing at that level, then, of course, the Park Service in Washington, and the Bureau of Public Roads in Washington, would endeavor to reach agreements, and we have been able to in most cases in the past. We have a few hanging fire, but I think I am optimistic, as Mr. Klotz and I think we will come to agreement.

Mr. WALLHAUSER. But the transfer will already have been made, hypothetically, to your Department?

Mr. WHITTON. Yes, but the money could not be contracted until the Park Service approves it, as I understand it.

Mr. WALLHAUSER. So that the control of the money would be the controlling factor as far as the Park Service is concerned?

PARKS WOULD APPROVE DESIGN

Mr. WHITTON. The Park Service, as I see it, would have to approve what we had laid out and designed before we could get the contract for it. That is my understanding. Money would be appropriated for them to build roads in their park and they would ask us to do it. Of course, we will get the safest road we can and we will get the most efficient road we can, and the cheapest one. But at the same time they have got to fulfill their goals in their area, and we are going to work with them to fulfill those goals.