that we cannot with the former division. We base a turn-over plan which we have been building up and putting into effect entirely outside of the recommendations I made in my biennial report.

Senator AUSTIN. I want you to make that perfectly clear, that the hardship cases could be released, those which you have described, and others, if such a resolution, joint resolution, were adopted, as we have been referring to, that is, the one that declares that the national interest is imperiled and it is acted under by the President. Is that true?

General MARSHALL. That is true. We want to do it as a continuing policy especially under present conditions where we are in an emergency yet are not actually at war. Morale assumes a very great importance in all of our plans. If a man is held in the service while his family is in a lamentable situation at home, his efficiency is wrecked and he affects adversely those in his immediate vicinity. We would not want him in the service. It is to our advantage to release him, and we want to do it and are doing it. We are acting in perfect good faith in this matter.

It is of vital interest to the country that the system provided in the Selective-Training and Service Act be continued, not just for 5 years but indefinitely. It is the only conceivable reasonably economical system for providing an adequate national defense. Secondly, and you are better judges of it than I am, I am convinced that such a system has a very strong and beneficial influence on the workings of democracy.

Senator AUSTIN. Well, that would carry out, would it not, Washington's recommendation in his barrack book of a well-trained militia? General MARSHALL. Yes, sir. I was told this morning that a retired Army officer who has written extensively of the Army, and sometimes to his personal disadvantage, because of his frankness, was coming here. I spoke to Gen. John McA. Palmer and I hope he will be permitted to appear before your committee. He can talk on our past military history with great effectiveness.

Senator DOWNEY. General Marshall, may I intervene with a question, please?

General MARSHALL. Yes.

Senator DOWNEY. As I understnad, if Congress would follow your recommendation here, that would give you, in the armed forces of the United States, approximately 1,400,000 men that you could then hold, according to your discretion, for an indefinite period? General MARSHALL. Yes, sir.

Senator DOWNEY. Now, General Marshall, will you tell us if you would then have the power to increase the Regular Army beyond that based upon existing laws?

General MARSHALL. Yes, sir, we would, but I think the expression Regular Army, as you use it is confusing. The effect of a joint resolution is to make a unified army. We cease to have components as all will be in the service under like conditions. We still will be in a position to return members of the civilian components to their homes, on a peace time basis, but from the moment of passage of the resolution we will have a unified Army that can be handled in a far more effective manner than is possible under present limitations.

Senator DowNEY. Yes, but do I not understand that there is a certain limitation that would be in existence?

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General MARSHALL. Yes, sir.

Senator DOWNEY. That would prevent you expanding the armed forces except upon the 3-year enlistment?

General MARSHALL. Yes, sir.

Senator DOWNEY. And to what extent could you expand that 3year enlistment?

General MARSHALL. There is no limit on the 3-year enlistment except the practical one of getting additional volunteers in any large number. Then, too, Congress established the Selective Training and Service Act to permit us to build up a trained reserve. War Department wants to proceed in good faith with Congress to carry out that Act. If the Army were filled up with 3-year men, which could not be accomplished, there would be no place for the selective-service man. The over-all limitation on the size of the Army remains in the hands of Congress because we cannot create a deficiency in the pay of personnel. We can create a deficiency for certain vital supplies, but we cannot create a deficiency for pay. Therefore, the determination as to the size of the Army remains within the power of Congress through the money appropriated for its support.

Senator DOWNEY. Yes, but did I understand you, General Marshall, to mean from your testimony that you believe that in the interests of national defense all limitations should be removed by Congress to your expanding the Army to whatever number, in your discretion, you thought proper?

General MARSHALL. No, sir; and I want to make it perfectly clear that the amount of money appropriated by Congress limits the size of the Army as we are forbidden by law to create a deficiency for personnel.

The other limitation with respect to personnel which would be removed pertains to the number of selectees. The Selective Training and Service Act now limits to 900,000 the number of selectees who can be in training at any one time.

Senator DowNEY. General Marshall, what I am primarily interested in, and I think most of the Senators will be interested in this question and a frank statement from you as to your own policy, and that is to what extent beyond this 1,400,000 would you desire to expand the armed forces of the United States?

General MARSHALL. Congress recently provided in fiscal year 1942 appropriations, 152,000 additional men over and above the present 1,418,000. Those men are all for the Air Corps in order to meet the expanding plane program. I testified before the committee recently and I repeat now that approximately 150,000 additional men would allow us to restore to divisions the men, and also the units that we had to take away in order to provide base forces and reinforcements that were not under consideration at the time Congress appropriated funds for fiscal year 1942, and would also permit us to organize certain special units which reports on the campaigns of Europe indicate that we should have available. The additional number that we can foresee now is approximately 150,000. You have recently given us 152,000 additional men, all for the increased number of planes that are being procured.

That is the limit, as I see it, at the present time. My principal concern is with the efficiency of the numbers we now have rather than with a great expansion with a possible superficial result.

I would like to say, however, that I am under constant pressure, and have been for the past year and a half, to demand increases in a very large way for almost every purpose. I have remained flatly opposed to such a procedure, because I have felt that there was the time to permit an orderly development instead of a superficial, hasty one. I wanted to go through the difficult first steps of expansion deliberately rather than hastily.

The same idea was applied to money, as to how much money could be efficiently spent, and in the initial phases I was criticized for not asking for enough. My feeling at that time that the situation resembled a kindling fire. If too much wood were piled on suddenly the fire would be put out. I did not want to put out the fire, I wanted to build it gradually to where it could accommodate large quantities of wood. I have been criticized by a great many people in public life, by a great many experts of one kind or another, because they have felt that I have dealt in too small numbers. But we have tried, and I think pretty well succeeded, in going forward in an orderly way rather than in a hasty, superficial manner. Mere numbers do not interest me. I am interested in efficient results.

Senator DOWNEY. May I clarify my mind by one further question, and I hope that will be all I will have to ask you? Do I understand you then, from your testimony so far, that if Congress should follow your recommendation you would then only plan on utilizing approximately 300,000 additional selectees in the coming year, plus whatever additional numbers were necessary to take up the casualties in the existing group? Would that express it?

General MARSHALL. Not quite, sir. Some of them would be 3-year men. Casualties in the existing Army would be replaced by selectees but they would not add to the total number, they would replace losses. What I object to is being forced to release men at the specific termination of 12 months. I want to be able to release them depending on where they happen to be located, depending on what the situation of their unit is, and, of course, depending on the development of the national situation. So if we say that we wish to bring in more selectees, we mean that we wish to release more selectees. General Haislip in the Personnel Section, wants me to release as many as possible in order to bring in a fresh group. The commanders of units want to hold on to as many as they can because of the time spent in training them. I must reconcile the two conflicting interests.

As to the increase in strength, I have mentioned the 152,000 that Congress has already provided for the Air Corps, and I have mentioned the 150,000 for rounding out our present forces. We must not lose sight, Senator, of the great conflagration in Europe and Asia. Conditions of warfare are changing with great rapidity and I do not want to create the impression that I am committed indefinitely to an Army of the size indicated regardless of future developments. At the present time, however, I have no intention of recommending a further increase.

I also would like to add that funds for the latter number of 150,000 have not yet been approved by the President nor by the Congress. I would like to state, for the benefit of you gentlemen, that it has been difficult at times to get through the Budget and through the President additional numbers, because of their reluctance to approve large increases. I think it is permissible for me to state that the

attitude of the President has been against tremendous increases, if it were possible to avoid it. He has always demanded convincing proof of the necessity of the increase.

The President cited-I hope it is permissible for me to quote the President without his specific permission-he cited the other day at a conference at the White House, his having required me to reduce the numbers sent to the various bases, because he would not approve garrisons of the size I recommended. While he recognized the possible necessity of increasing them later, he made us reduce our first estimates. His reaction has been reluctance to large increases, which is quite contrary to the impression that seems to be in the minds of a great many people.

I myself have had to reduce numbers in quite a heavy percentage in relation to one garrison over the remonstrances of the War Plans Division, and over decided remonstrances of the commander of the garrison himself. Had a tragedy occurred I would have been blamed because the commander wanted more, the War Plans Division recommended more, and yet I deliberately cut it. I feel that I had reason to do it. The President in the same way has had to impose cuts on me. His attitude has been one of reluctance to increase rather than a rush to increase.

Senator DOWNEY. Thank you, General Marshall. I have just one further question. I telephoned to your office this morning to ask you if it were possible to place in the record the selectees, by age groups. I wonder if that can be done.

General MARSHALL. The data go up to include March 1941, and we will submit that for the record.

(The data referred to are as follows:)

Total induction by age, November 1940 through March 1941

Total induction by age, November 1940 through March 1941-Continued

The CHAIRMAN. Senator Chandler desires to ask a question. Senator CHANDLER. General Marshall, I regret exceedingly that it has developed in the testimony that because of these limitations that have been imposed it makes it more difficult for you to make certain the defenses necessary for the people of the United States. I have a couple of little boys who like to play soldiers. They can move their soldiers wherever they want to. It looks like they require you to play army against the fellow that is playing for keeps. I want to give you my support for whatever it is worth. I sympathize with the terrific job you have got.

I heard over the radio the other day, just by accident, a broadcast that I think ought to be delivered to every selectee in the United States. I think it was Fulton Lewis, Jr. He was talking to a selectee named Stephen McCormick. I know Fulton Lewis but I do not know Stephen McCormick. He asked him about being in the Army. He said he was in the Army. He asked him, "How long are you going to stay?" The selectee said, "I do not know whether it is 3 months or 3 years, but as long as we have a job to do, I think everybody ought to be there to do it."

I agree with that statement. All the countries that do not exist any more, except they have had to remove their rulers, their cabinets, and government to some other place, because they have had too little too late and had been too careless with their plans.

I think it is high time that the Congress of the United States gives to you, as Chief of our Staff, all the men and money that you need. If you cannot protect the country with the Army, then what would any of us do today? I would not want, for anything in the world, to keep you from being able to protect the people of our country.

I would not want you to tell, for anything in the world, some foreign enemy or some foreign government what you are ready to do with the troops of the United States. I do not think anybody else ought to do it. I was in the Army at 18 years of age; I did not do very much. That was the last time I was in. I am subject to call now. If I am of more use to you there than I am here, I am ready to do it. I supported you then, and I am going to support you now. We should quit trying to make you play war and play soldier.