ness between them, by an arrangement that was most convenient to themselves. In the year 1794, the war going on with France, Mr. Dundas, the secretary of state for the home department, also carried on the business of what was then for the first time called the war department. The business, however, occasioned by the war accumulated to such a degree, that it was thought necessary to separate the two departments; and on that occasion it was, that the office of secretary of state for the war department was created. Thus it appeared that his office grew out of the war alone; it was on the exclusive ground of the great business which the war occasioned that it had been created, and not at all on any consideration connected with the colonial business. The only object of the creation of this office was, to ease the office of the secretary of state for the home department, of the business of the war. He believed (although of this he was not certain) that until 1801-that was for seven years-all business connected with the colonies was transacted by the secretary of state for the home department. It was not necessary on the present occasion to inquire why, in 1801, the colonial business had been transferred from the office of the secretary of state for the home department to the office of the secretary of state for war. It was desirable, however, to know what was the precise nature of the home office. By one of the papers on the table it appeared that Mr. King, one of the secretaries of that office, had on examination stated the business of it to be the receiving of intelligence and the carrying on of all correspondence relative to every part of the British empire, with the single exception of the East Indies, as also every thing respecting grants, pardons, and regulations in all civil matters, preferments in the church, matters of police, the regular army, militia, and volunteers, dispensations, licenses to trade, alien regulations, in short every domestic matter, with the exception of the business of the revenue and those affairs which were under the management of the lord chancellor. It thus appearing that the third secretaryship was created in 1794 solely to transact the business of the war, his conclusion was, that as the war was at an end, that secretaryship ought to be abolished. He called on the right hon. gentlemen opposite to state what had occurred since 1793 to render it inexpedient to recur to the establishment

portance under the present circumstances of the country he should confine his proposition to a short compass, because he was afraid, at that late hour, of wearying the House. His proposition, then, was simply this" That an humble Address be presented to his royal highness the Prince Regent, to represent to his royal highness, that his faithful Commons, relying upon the gracious disposition of his royal highness, to concur in all such measures of economy as may be consistent with the security of the country; humbly pray, that his royal highness would be graciously pleased to give directions, that the division of the state officers made in 1794 (by which, in addition to the Secretaries of State for the home and foreign departments, a secretary of state was constituted for the war department), be revised, and that the departments of the secretaries of state be, now that peace is happily restored, again placed, with all convenient dispatch, upon the footing on which they stood in 1793." His object in making this motion was to save to the public the expense of a third secretary of state; and the proposition he had to make out was, that this might be done consistently with the public service and the good of the country. Unless he made this proposition clear beyond dispute, he could have no claim to the attention of the House. On former occasions, many debates had arisen in that House as to the office in question. In 1794, Mr. Dundas was appointed to the office then created, under the name of the Board Department; and the question then was, whether Mr. Dundas was capable of retaining his seat in that House while holding such an appointment. The question now had nothing to do with that discussion, but merely related to the expediency of the office. He must go a little into the history of the appointment, in order that gentle men might have some general notion as to the manner in which it arose. Up to the year 1768, there were only two secretaries of state; but, in consequence of the critical situation of the country during the war with America, a third was afterwards added. In this state things continued up to the year 1782, when, by a bill of Mr. Burke's, the office of the third secretary was abolished. From the year 1782, up to 1794, the business was conducted by two secretaries of state, under the name of secretaries of state for the foreign and home department; they dividing the busi

of the state office at that period. He pressed this the more strongly, because no one step had yet been taken by the House on the recommendation of economy contained in the speech made on the opening of the session; and because that speech distinctly stated his royal highness the Prince Regent's readiness to concur in any measures of economy which parliament might think proper to suggest. He declared, upon his word, that he was actuated by no invidious, or personal, or party feeling on this occasion. Were his own political friends in power, he would make the same proposition, and he had no doubt that in that event they would have acceded to it. In the present situation of the country, it became necessary to save every hundred pound that could be saved. He begged therefore to be distinctly understood, that his only objects were the diminution of the patronage of the Crown, and the diminution of the public expenditure. That the latter object was to be obtained by agreeing to his motion, he would now proceed to show. By a paper which he held in his hand, and which any member might procure at the vote-office, it appeared that in 1797 the establishment of the war-office (exclusively of the contingencies) amounted to 10,850. The expense of the same office was at present 21,000l., exclusive of contingencies. The contingencies, separately, were 8,000l. so that 29,000l. might now be said to be the amount of expense incurred by that office. The difference between this expense, and that in 1797, was extremely great, the contingencies at that time amounting to little more than 2,000l. He by no means wished to hold it out that the whole of this sum would be a saving to the public, but still there might be a saving by the reduction which he proposed, and though not to a very great amount, yet such a one as the country ought to look to in its present state. The office might be classed under three heads-the office itself and its two branches. There were lord Bathurst, and those immediately under him, at an expense of 8,500l. a year, not including the clerks. There was then the war department, and opposite that the colonial department. And here it was that the discussion would arise, as from the estimates which had been made by ministers, it would be seen what it was they intended to reduce. The war department was reduced to 1,400., the whole being about 4,000l. and 2,500l. to be now taken from

it, so that only 1,400%. of the expense of this department was to remain. The office would thus change its character, and become chiefly colonial. He remembered the defence that was formerly offered for continuing it, when he pro posed its abolition, amounted to this, that it was really a war office; and that, had it been considered as a department for the colonies, it would have come under the scope of Mr. Burke's bill, and must have, in consistency with its provisions, been done away with. Now, since the war was ended, the ground was changed; and it must not be abolished, because it was intended more for conducting colonial than war business: so that, whether we had peace or war, whether one pretence or another was resorted to, the office must be continued, and the country must support its charges. He was willing to allow that there might be more colonial business now than there was when the business of the colonies was managed in the secretary of state's office for the home department; and in proposing that it should be again transferred to that office, and that the third secretary of state's department should be entirely abolished, he had no objection to make a motion, which he was sure would be agreeable to an hon. gentleman opposite (Mr. Goulburn), that he should be transferred along with it [A laugh]. He might be removed to the home department, with the care of the colonies, and a proper number of clerks. The head of the department, lord Bathurst, and his secretary, cost the nation about 8 or 9,000l. a year, including contingencies. By the plan he proposed there would be a saving of 12 or 14,000l. Was not this a saving deserving of attention? He might be told that the business of the colonies had increased so much since 1801, as to render this new office necessary to be continued for the colonies alone: the justice of this opinion he could not assent to. He would only desire gentlemen to look back to that period, and compare the list of our foreign establishments then and at the present moment, and they would find but little increase. We had then in the West Indies, Martinique, Guadaloupe, Essequibo, and most of the possessions that we had at present; we had likewise Malta at that time; we had since acquired in the Mediterranean, the Ionian islands, and in the east the Mauritius; but he did not think those acquisitions were sufficient to justify the continuance of an ex

make this saving? He knew it would be said, that the trouble of the situation was very great-that there was a vast deal of business to be done. It was very easy to make business appear very heavy, where a place was to be kept, and he asserted that there was no sinecure place in which it was not possible to make such an appearance and bustle of business for a short time, as would show some grounds why it should not be abolished [A laugh]. When he held the office of treasurer of the navy, he found by experience that it was easy to be busily employed for an hour or an hour and a half every day, in order to keep a situation [A laugh]. Nothing was more easy than to give orders to a clerk to make out some long returns, and to come down to the House in the evening with a large bundle of papers bound up with red tape, which it would appear had been arranged with vast labour and care [A laugh].-He mentioned this to show that several offices which were said to be very laborious might be discontinued, with little inconvenience to the public service. He thought that he had now made out that the third secretary of state's department might be abolished, and the expenses of it saved, with no inconvenience to the public service. If the office were now vacant, and if there were no objections to its abolition but the difficulty of carrying on the public service without it, he was sure the noble lord opposite, the secretary for the foreign department, and another noble lord who occupied the home department, would willingly take upon themselves all the functions which it imposed, and would jump at it for the sake of the patronage it yielded. They would willingly divide its duties to share its influence. But lord Bathurst was in the way, and this was their objection. He felt its force; and in order to obviate it, would take upon himself to provide for his lordship at the board of control. He would despair of attaining that saving for the public, which was the object of his present motion, considering that ministers had at first set themselves against a change, did he not derive some consolation from remembering, that, of late, the second thoughts of his majesty's government had been the best [A laugh]. This appeared to him a most important question. The House owed it to the country, and to the Prince Regent, to offer advice to the Crown, in conformity with the gracious recommendation of economy deli

pensive office, otherwise declared to be unnecessary. The business of the Mauritius might be managed by the board of control. Some other business might be transferred to the same board. The se cretary of state's office for the British empire might appear to convey the idea of immense and formidable employment, and certainly was a very sounding phrase; but little more business would arise, he was convinced, though this title again were adopted, and made to comprehend the executive management of the colonies, than could easily be conducted by the home department, with the accession of the hon. gentleman, the benefit of whose services he proposed to give it. There might now and then be a little business of great importance, and of a novel nature, such as a registry bill, but this could not often happen. There might be, he acknowledged, something alarming to ministers in a proposition to dismiss a cabinet minister; but he did not go so far as to propose such a measure. He would merely point out a transfer; and as there was a vacancy by the death of a noble lord at the head of the board of control, he would mention that place as a suitable provision for lord Bathurst. This would be a great saving to the public, and no change as affecting the situations of ministers who, he observed, should fairly divide the public business among themselves. This would not be turning any minister out of office, though he would not say the truth if he did not assert that it was his wish they should all be turned out as soon as possible [A laugh], but at the same time that he said this, he was willing to admit that lord Bathurst was a very good and efficient public officer. What he contended for was, that the war department being now so much reduced, and the home department having many heavy duties to attend to, which might be fairly considered to belong to the war department, the minister who presided over that department, should not be allowed to have all holiday time of it, now that the heavy duties of the office had ceased. It would not be fair to urge that, because the business of this department had been very heavy in time of war, and had been very well performed, the office should now be continued, when it was no longer necessary. There was a department, the reduction of which would, without any inconvenience, be attended with a saving of several thousand pounds in the year. Why, then, not (VOL. XXXIII.)

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