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the operating function of any agency, but should be the sole function of an independent agency.

Thus, if I were trying to consider a new operating agency of Gov. ernment to direct the management of applied science and technological laboratories, I would leave the National Science Foundation out of such an agency and let it remain the independent and prime agency for university science support.

This leads me to raise the question as to whether-
Mr. DADDARIO. If I might interrupt right there.
Dr. DuBRIDGE. Yes.

Mr. DADDARIO. If you were to leave the National Science Foundation out of such an agency and let it remain the prime agency for university science support, wouldn't you necessarily have to give it power that it doesn't presently have, such as power to initiate or veto plans in other agencies where science activity is going on? Could it serve as the important agency in science unless it had authority which it presently does not have?

Dr. DuBRIDGE. Well, I don't believe that authority, in that sense, is what it needs. What it needs is leverage, prestige, the ability to secure adequate funding from the Congress.

The authority it should have, it seems to me, is an authority to fill in the gaps which exist in our total science picture, because of the variety of interests and activities of the other agencies. And through various mechanisms, the Science Foundation people are aware of the scientific activities going on throughout all the other agencies of Government.

They are able to spot the national needs and where they are lacking, and if they had the funding, and the flexible funding, they could step in and say we are not getting all we need in the field of marine science or atmospheric science or environmental science or health science, or any other fields of science and therefore they would attempt to fill in the scientific gaps where they appear.

So it can be a balance wheel as has been often said, if it had sufficient monetary muscle. It would provide the coordination simply by being in there, finding out where the gaps are and filling them in.

Mr. DADDARIO. But Dr. DuBridge—when you add sufficient funding, you overcome a lot of problems, because in all things, when there is plenty of money the inefficiencies are submerged. When you have good times in the country, the inefficient businesses survive. When the squeeze comes, the ones which are badly managed, are hurt.

Unless the National Science Foundation does have some leverage in these areas, knowing what is going on would not appear to me to be sufficient. If we consider some of the problems which the National Science Foundation has had to face particularly in this day, to use some of your own words, when it knows what is going on in other agencies and when it finds itself having to make some choices because of the restricted funding and when it takes upon itself work going on in other agencies without money being added to give support or there is a diminishing amount in the budget of those agencies which transfer activities to the National Science Foundation.

This is really management, isn't it? Isn't this administration of our resources ?

Dr. DuBRIDGE. Yes.

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Mr. DADDARIO. When there is a budget squeeze, if such things as this come about, we aren't really talking about support of science or support of technology. We are talking about its administration and its management which goes beyond just supporting scientists, because there is such a dislocation of activity and such concern that permeates the whole academic establishment.

The effect that this has on graduate students, the effect that it has on proper growth-it appears to me if that is all we would do for the National Science Foundation, it sort of leaves it out in limbo by itself without leverage powers. Perhaps we would make the situation worse rather than better.

Dr. DuBRIDGE. Well, I certainly agree with you that we have not given the Science Foundation the support to do the things that I have visualized that it should be doing. The question is how to strengthen the Science Foundation so it can do these things more adequately?

It is my feeling that you do not strengthen the Foundation itself by associating it with other agencies with very different missions and kinds of responsibilities. If you put the Science Foundation as one segment of a new agency, of whatever kind it is, and the other seg. ments had to do with applied science-for example, with the management of certain laboratories working in this or that applied science field-it is my feeling that the Science Foundation might be in a weaker and not in a stronger position, because its attitude toward supporting university science would often be put in the shadow by the immediate, current and the practically aimed needs of these other laboratories and segments of this new agency which are associated with it.

So the only question is, Is the Science Foundation better by being independent or better by being associated but somewhat unreleated?

Mr. DADDARIO. You make a good case for having it remain, under these sets of circumstances, independent rather than under some other agency. But my questioning is that enough if the management structure were to be set up so that it were to be separate and apart? Wouldn't it need some additional authority?

Dr. DuBRIDGE. Well, I think the amendments of the National Science Foundation Act which you sponsored recognize the fact that although the original National Science Foundation Act did charge the Foundation with certain matters of coordinating, evaluating, and supervising the work of other agencies, this became an infeasible task for the Foundation.

No department or agency can supervise, coordinate, evaluate the work of other agencies who are on the same level and who are competing and have other points of view and other interests.

Mr. DADDARIO. Especially when those other agencies are doing the work that was originally contemplated to have been done within the National Science Foundation, much of this work is finding its way there during this 4-year hiatus which you refer to in the formation of the National Science Foundation.

Dr. DuBRIDGE. That is true. Therefore, I don't think any agency, whether it is Cabinet level or sub-Cabinet level, can have authority to direct or even very strongly, except through persuasion and discussion, influence the work of other agencies.

This kind of authority for coordination of the whole Government structure and for balancing our whole scientific and technological enterprise, cannot be the function of an agency but must be a function of the White House. This was the reason that the Office of Science and Technology was created-to work with the Science Foundation, with the Defense Department, with NASA, with AEC, with the other agencies to try to get a picture of the total Federal science and technology operations, to assist the agencies in identifying gaps in their programs and to assist the President in finding gaps in the total program.

I believe that this question of coordination is a White House level job and not a departmental job.

Mr. DADDARIO. Well, Dr. DuBridge, how does OST fit into this? If we were to develop a mechanism through which the National Science Foundation would be placed in this independent position through some new structure or other, what would we have to do to build up OST which appears to me to be presently understaffed and therefore unable to perform this function as adequately as it ought to?

Would the National Science Foundation be used to help you do this, would it be given some authority in this area, or could it be? Or would it just necessarily serve you in a staff way as it does now?

Dr. DuBRIDGE. Well, the OST for many years has been attempting to do this coordinating function. It does it, of course, through its two important arms. There is the President's Science Advisory Committee, on the one hand, drawn from the university and industrial community, and all its panels and consultants who see the science and technology picture throughout the country and who can identify areas in which there are problems and gaps and inadequacies.

The President's Science Advisory Committee has a variety of panels in the field of defense technology, space technology, environmental science, urban problems, academic science, and so on. These various panels work very hard in trying to find out what the scientific and technological picture of the country is in these respective areas, and then bring to the attention of the cognizant agencies their views on the gaps or inadequacies or lack of coordination. A report from a panel of the President's Science Advisory Committee, submitted to NASA or DOD or AEC, has proved to be a fairly influential document in helping those agencies.

The OST has been very influential in helping the Science Foundation; and the Science Foundation has been enormously helpful to OST. Since we have common interests and objectives, OST can turn to NSF and say, look, we don't have the facilities or staff to undertake these studies, can't you provide the information, the background and

so on?

The NSF has carried on extensive statistical studies, informationgathering studies and so on, at the request of OST to assist the Science Advisory Committee and OST staff in getting a view of science in the country.

The other important arm of OST is the Federal Council on Science and Technology. There are those who say that in times past it hasn't been as effective as it could. We are trying earnestly to make it more effective. The Federal Council, as you know, consists of the top scien

tists or research officers in each agency; the Assistant Secretary for Research and Development in each of the Departments, or the heads of such agencies as AEC and NASA. Here at this level, the agencies concerned with science get together and compare notes; they find out by discussions among themselves where they think the troubles and problems lie. The Federal Council in turn has a whole series of committees that deal with these areas of environment and urban affairs, academic science, material science and so on. The Federal Council is advisory and doesn't have power as a committee, but when the Federal Council issues a general report, this in a sense has the authority of the White House. Many of the reports of the Federal Council suggesting remedies for inadequacies in our science and technology picture have had a very great influence in bringing attention to these problems and in encouraging agencies to take further action or revise their activities or policies.

So that while OST has a small staff--and, incidentally, we are seeking funds to increase the staff-it does have an important correlating function and can get the support of the staffs of other agencies through the Federal Council

. It has the immediate cooperation of the staff of the Science Foundation.

I grant you that I am not an empire builder but I do think the OST does need further strengthening. It will have to be further strengthened now in view of its responsibilities in connection with the Environmental Quality Council. I think OST has the potentiality of improving the science picture.

Furthermore, OST does represent the White House. In representing the case for the various science activities to the Congress, I think we possibly can bring a little influence on congressional committees to see the total picture. I am trying to work with the White House congressional liaison officers to see how more effectively we can get the proper information to the congressional committees as to the total science and technology needs of the country and how the needs of the various departments fit into this picture.

We also work closely with the Bureau of the Budget in looking at the whole science and technology budget of the Nation. We are now conducting a very intense study in collaboration with BOB to see where our total science and technology budget is adequate or inadequate.

Mr. DADDARIO. Dr. DuBridge, while we are on the subject, I would like to ask one further question and then we can go on to the balance of your report.

OST is one of the coordinating agencies in the White House. You have the National Aeronautics and Space Council which was created by the Space Act. The Vice President is the Chairman. You have the National Marine Council, which was established in 1966, also with the Vice President as Chairman. And the Federal Council for Science and Technology with 11 standing committees.

Now, beyond the idea of strengthening the staff of OST, should we eliminate gaps and overlays which exist in these coordinating agencies and bring them all together, or do they serve a better function by being set up in a multiagency way?

Dr. DuBRIDGE. Well, this is a rather puzzling question. We are attempting to establish a closer relation between OST and the staff

of the Marine Council under the Vice President and the staff of the Space Council, also under the Vice President. We have very good relations with the Marine Council staff. We are trying to work closely with them on marine problems, and they in a sense supplement the OSŤ work by giving their attention to the problems in those particular areas. As you have probably seen, the Vice President has recently named Colonel Anders, one of the Christmas astronauts who flew with Frank Borman, as the Executive Director of the staff of the Space Council. We have been in close touch with Colonel Anders and he is working to strengthen his staff there. We believe that he wants to and we want to develop a staff relation which will tie the Space Council staff closely with the OST staff. So I think if it is properly arranged one can say that the staffs of these two councils supplement the work of OST and help us in those particular areas.

Chairman MILLER. Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DADDARIO. Mr. Chairman.

Chairman MILLER. Doctor, you described these interagency coordinating councils for different facets of science. How do you find that they have worked in the past? Have you studied their operations? Do you think that they have been successful ?

Dr. DuBRIDGE. Well, I realize that there are many difficulties in socalled interagency committees. My experience is obviously somewhat limited. But there are different kinds-for example, the President's new Council on Environmental Quality, and the President's Council on Urban Affairs, of which the President is the Chairman. I assure you he sits in the chair and take an active part in these meetings. These I believe are quite effective Cabinet-level agencies for bringing together the problems and policies of the Government in their respective fields. At the table where these meetings occur, with the President's presence in the chair, specific directives can be given to individual Cabinet members or to groups of them to coordinate or carry out or initiate or change the work in their field.

So I do not put the Presidentially chaired Cabinet-level councils in the same category as I do the many sub-Cabinet and lower level interagency committees.

Chairman MILLER. Well, I would certainly agree with you; in anything that the President personally interests himself, other members of his Cabinet or his staff are going to take a great interest.

Dr. DuBRIDGE. Yes.

Chairman MILLER. But isn't it asking the President to cut his time on things pretty thin when he has to get down and do this sort of thing on many of the great important problems before him? Now, my experience has been that you don't get to the President very often.

I had experience in one of these interagency things. One trouble was that even the Cabinet members who were on it didn't have time to give to it, so they would send one of their Assistant Secretaries, and not always the same person. The results weren't anything. You would arrive at a decision and then you would have to go back to the principals to get confirmation. Maybe one or two Secretaries were readily approachable, but it would be quite some time in trying to get to another one. By the time you got the decision, the thing was pretty well gone. The time had elapsed and it was a transient sort

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