How many disposable bottles, Coca-Cola, Fresca, beer

Mr. DADDARIO. No advertising.

Chairman MILLER. Excuse me-are created in the Washington metropolitan area or in the San Francisco Bay metropolitan area, or the New York metropolitan area each day?

It is cheaper to buy new bottles than it is to collect old bottles and sterilize them for reuse.

Dr. PIORE. Today's paper either the New York Times or the Washington Post, reported that one of the glass companies has a process of taking old bottles

Chairman MILLER. That is just what I was coming to. This is the Owens Glass Co. When they were pouring the large plug for the mirror out there some time ago, I found as a glass manufacturer he was quite concerned with what they could do with this glass. Could you reclaim it, use it in a method of laying concrete or streets, use it for aggregate for streets! I presume there is a possibility of this.

Dr. PIORE. This was basically the article.

Chairman MILLER. I think this was a test road they were building out there to try it out.

What are we going to do with these glass bottles? Have we got an unlimited supply of sand and stuff that goes into glass that we can continue to fill this room or perhaps fill this room three times over each day and yet go back and get more?

But the next point is I had the privilege, I think, Mr. Daddario, when we went up to the Du Pont place. They have made plastic fittings for disposable pipe. I have a friend in the cast iron pipe business, manufactures it at Oakland, Calif. He is looking to the future of getting into this thing because he said sooner or later you are going to use this. It is cheaper, but what inhibits it today are local ordinances. City ordinances say you must use cast iron. I don't know that this is just as good. I am certain that Du Pont says it is just as good. I have no way of evaluating it, but I do know that local ordinances come up from time to time that do inhibit what should be done or what could be done. I wonder if this isn't one of the places where we have to educate the American people.

Dr. KEENEY. You know, Mr. Miller, you'd better get your oceanographer down at the bottom of the sea pretty soon before it is entirely covered with plastic bottles which never disappear, just as the surface is pretty nearly covered with plastic bags.

Chairman MILLER. I got a report the other day about places out in the Atlantic such as the old Sargasso Sea which we used to read about as a kid, that the pollution in them is pretty bad, but I don't know how you are going to stop this.

We have a problem in as sophisticated a place as San Francisco Bay with the city of San Francisco dumping raw untreated sewage in two places into that bay. When some people came to me sometime ago out there, and said we want to make a fish refuge and game refuge in the San Francisco Bay, the southern part of the bay, will you join us, I said, no. I used to be an executive officer of the California Division of Fish and Game and I have had a little experience.

"Why aren't you for it?"

I am for it. If you will clean the mess up in the bay, you won't need to establish a refuge. The fish will be there and the game will come there. You can't entice them there under the conditions that exist today, though the very charming wife of a former president of the University of California led a great crusade to do this, sat in my office, was very much discouraged and disappointed with me when I told her that some of the things she said were not true. She said that the fish spawn there. I said, no, fish don't spawn there. It is exposed to the sun certain hours of the day. I said the migratory birds aren't coming. It is a little close.

She said, you have got to admit you can go out there and see shore birds. I said, yes, you can go out and see shore birds if you are interested in seeing the long-legged boys run around.

We have destroyed these things and we have to put them together again.

Now, what has taken place there is taking place all over the world. The last time I was in Europe, we were over at the meeting of the U.N. Committee on Peaceful Uses of Outer Space. Colonel Gould and I went down to Lisbon to see a great Portuguese hydrographic institute where they are making a study of Rio de Janeiro Bay to see what can be done with it. We were going to Belgrade to the meeting of our own science advisers and stopped at Zurich. We were told one of the things that they were worrying about was the pollution of Lake Zurich. Most of it is a result of the use of chemical fertilizers. Lake Erie is bad enough, but when the beautiful lakes in Switzerland go, what is going to be the cost to the people?

Excuse me, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DADDARIO. It is all right, Mr. Chairman. We have to leave a little time for Mr. Winn. He has been very patient.

Mr. WINN. I am sorry I was late and I was in and out of the room, but I got the feeling what both of you are saying is we sort of need a king of science, stronger leadership, a coordinator, or a captain, whatever we want to call him, to bring directions together instead of going in different directions or floundering separately.

Is this basically what you are saying?

Dr. PIORE. Well, I would

Mr. WINN. You said you didn't like the word "leadership."

Dr. PIORE. I would modify it a little bit. We are doing well. We can do much better, in my view. This is a personal view. We have very definite problems which cannot be settled unless we pull a lot of things together under one administrative tent.

Dr. KEENEY. Mr. Winn, what I have been saying is you have got to pull together a lot more than science.

Mr. WINN. More than science?

Dr. KEENEY. Yes. You really have got to pull together the whole intellectual enterprise.

Mr. WINN. Then along that line, what can we do? You talk about maybe the not too bright or the average senior intellectual. What can we do to stimulate private enterprise into becoming more involved in our programs, footing more of the bill for research in scientific fields and hiring a lot of these associate or assistant professors, whatever you call them, that are having a hard time getting off the ground? This

isn't too unusual. Young lawyers usually don't do too well and young doctors don't do too well. So I don't think we are going to change that too fast. That seems to be a part of our system of working their way up. But they do have to make a decent living if they are going to stay in the field.

How can we get the free enterprise system to be more involved and use more of these men?

Dr. PIORE. Let me put it this way. In our free enterprise system, you will find that American industry is increasing its support to universities slowly, but it is on the rise. When I talk about American industry, I mean the 500 in Fortune.

The other thing is that there is a general trend in American industry to be responsive to the thinking of our college presidents. They like to receive general funds to run their institutions, not specific funds for departments or for some specific purpose.

So from where I sit, the trend is to an increasing part, increasing donation, whatever you want to call it, from private enterprise to universities in the area of general support.

Another thing one has to remember is that you can just go so far in trying to get it from American industry. They have a lot of responsibility. I would say the companies have been comparatively generous. One has to look to the Government to support our intellectual plant. Private enterprise and foundations all do their part. Let us not forget our State legislatures.

Dr. Keeney would know much more how much private industries give to universities in any given year, but I don't expect a profound step function. It will keep increasing slowly.

Dr. KEENEY. And more wisely.

Dr. PIORE. More wisely; that is what I meant.

Dr. KEENEY. I would not like to see the private industry take over the assistant and associate professors, Mr. Winn. You cut off your intellectual future if you strip the institutions of the people who do the teaching.

Mr. WINN. I don't want them to take it over, but I am talking about someone to foot the bill so they don't have to run to Capitol Hill with their hands out. That is what I meant and what Jerry Pettis talked on a minute ago. It is ridiculous for our top men to have to run around up here with their hands out looking for support for a job they want to do, whether they are qualified or not, and that is one of the bad parts about the Government. We put them in a slot somewhere because they have got this degree or that degree, but some of them sit down and do not produce nearly what they are capable of producing.

I think you will agree on that.

The other thing goes back to the universities and brings up the subject we have talked about before. I have been very outspoken on it because I see it. I ran into it at two different universities this past weekend where I think scientists and educators-I am not pinning them all down in one category are hiding behind the guise of education so they can get this funding to carry on their work. I don't know which is right.

The point is they are being paid by free enterprise and the Government, both maybe, to do a certain amount of scientific research and they are supposed to be educating the students of the future and the students never see them. That is where I got the complaint. They are in so and so's class, advertised under so and so, who has a great reputation. They haven't seen him all semester. You know it and I know it.

Dr. KEENEY. Yes; but you know that sort of thing has been going on for as long as I have been in universities which is some time, and a lot of it is true and a lot of it is exaggerated. You have heard the story about students who came in and found a tape recorder in the seminar room and left their tape recorders and went away. I don't know whether that happened, but it is an exaggerated situation or an exaggerated story, one or the other. But there is a great deal of absenteeism, and sponsored research does interfere with education at some levels.

Mr. DADDARIO. Having said that, if I might interrupt for a moment, Mr. Winn.

Mr. WINN. I am all through.

Mr. DADDARIO. What would your observations be, Dr. Keeney, on whether or not the level of teaching has improved over the course of these years since this kind of support has come about?

Dr. KEENEY. I think it has improved from where I was to where I ended up quite a lot. I don't know that it has improved anywhere near as much as it should. A great deal of education is directed to things that don't matter much and that have to be squeezed quite hard to get anything of consequence out of them. I think we need a thorough educational reform and I think it has got to be started in an awful lot of places at considerable expense.

Mr. DADDARIO. Because there are divisions, they aren't pulled together and because we don't have a national goal we don't have the kind of vigor we ought to have. It is not just a matter of money. How you pull it all together? How you develop an approach to the accomplishment of these ends? This is what you both seem to be talking

about.

Dr. KEENEY. That is what I am talking about and it has quite a lot to do with glass bottles at the bottom of the sea and old tires in San Francisco Bay at low tide, and it is the failure of education to concentrate the people's attention on questions of ultimate consequence that is concerning me and frightens me quite a lot.

Mr. DADDARIO. There was one point, Dr. Keeney, that Mr. Winn raised. I don't know whether that was the point Mr. Pettis was in fact making about these researchers coming up here for support. I understand Mr. Pettis' point to be not they had come up with their hands out but rather they were coming up here and shopping around. Somehow we ought to be better managed so they would not be able to play one agency against the other.

Mr. WINN. I missed that point, Mr. Chairman. I think my point was why are they coming to the U.S. Government all the time? Why aren't they going to free enterprise?

Chairman MILLER. Because that is where the action is.

Mr. DADDARIO. I think that is the question that Dr. Piore in fact answered. Maybe not completely, but that is the question he answered. Although he considers there is room for improvement, there is a tendency toward additional support. Private enterprise cannot do it all. Both of our witnesses this morning are somewhat concerned that these types of people, with this kind of innovative capability, are being supported in other countries to a greater extent than ever before. This offers us some challenge. They are putting these questions of education and research much more closely in perspective to the problems of their society. This seems to have something that comes through from both your testimony.

Dr. KEENEY. I think if I were a young man capable of having innovative ideas and carrying them out, I would probably go to Britain.

Where would you go?

Dr. PIORE. I would stay here, but that is neither here nor there.
Dr. KEENEY. I probably would, too.

Chairman MILLER. You don't like that cold country.

Dr. PIORE. Phil Abelson returned from a trip abroad and gave a talk to the American Chemical Society indicating how Europe potentially can outstrip us technologically. It would be a very interesting document for the members of this committee. He has been requested to publish it.

Mr. DADDARIO. Gentlemen, we have come to the end of our time. Mr. WINN. Mr. Chairman, can I make one statement.

It is a statement, I think, interesting to our guests and to the members.

I was at Manhattan, Kans., this last Saturday, and a young lad, a junior in school, an engineer, smart as a whip, asked me if I would introduce a truth-in-education bill. That really stirred my thinking. I have been thinking about what that young man was really meaning and he was saying he had never seen some of his engineering professors. He felt he had been misled. That was kind of interesting, I thought.

Mr. DADDARIO. This committee will adjourn until Thursday next at 10 o'clock at the same place.

(Whereupon, at 12 p.m., the subcommittee adjourned, to reconvene at 10 a.m., Thursday, October 9, 1969.)