Israel Batista (28 years) Methodist, pastor of a church in Matanzas and professor in the seminary, is less optimistic. "Even though in general I agree with Dr. Ham, I am a little pessimistic for several reasons. I believe that the basic problem of the church in Cuba is that of people marginal to the society. That stands in the way of the church being within the revolutionary process. Without a doubt there has been an advance in the conceptions of the church. But the revolutionary process advances very quickly; by the time the church changes and adapts to the process, the revolution has moved on to another theme which is much more original. Lets take an example: Today we are doing volunteer work; yet today volunteer work is no longer a theme of much interest for the government because it is now a part of the society. Everyone already does volunteer work."

"In addition, we represent a minority within the church, a group not all together accepted..."

"I wanted to ask the following," interrupts Dr. Ham: "You say, and I am in agreement, that we are a minority. But are we an influential minority?"

"

"Yes, we are an influential minority because we have the dynamic of newness, responds Batista, "while what is called the group of the right has nothing to contribute to this process and feels itself displaced. But within this same minority that participates, not all of us have the same concept of participation. It could be that some of the brothers are here collaborating in cutting cane but doing it from another ecclesiastical viewpoint (his witness, his presence). Others, because they really affirm a revolutionary involvement. We represent a minority group in a church composed of marginal elements. It is a church with an exile mentality. Here is the major difficulty. Some have left and some are preparing to leave, and among those who remain many have left spiritually. That is, they are people with the mentality of exiles. They are absentee presences in this revolutionary process."

5

Ado.to Ham

Sergio Arce

A'berto Padin

"We feel that the thinking of Che is a challenge to the church" -- affirms pastor Piedra. "I think that in the first place it is necessary to modify our concept of the religious man; I do not believe in the pastor or the priest with languid looks and head in the clouds; but in the religious man who lives and suffers the same penalties and the same preoccupations as all the other men of our country. In my judgment, we contribute to this new concept the little that we have, so that there will be a new birth, so that a new man will be created in our society."

traint. I think that the task of the church is to create man, to develop man. I do not feel that the adjective "Christian" adds anything more. Man is called to be man and new man, and the term "Christian man" can be abolished. Here is where I see the task of the church. The revolution, faced with hundreds of different problems, can sometimes neglect the problem of man; the church must always remember that the objective is the new man. Of course, the critique that I made before of the senility of the church and its composition, does not permit me to be very optimistic."

Q. If you had to mention the name of some Christian in Latin America who by his deeds, or his words, in some way has contributed to your present formation, who would you mention?

"I would say Ernesto Che Guevara," says Alberto Padin (26 years) theology student, and pastor of the Presbyterian church in Nueva Paz.

Q. Ernesto Che Guevara? I asked that you mention a Christian. Why that interpretation of Guevara as a Christian?

"Because in my judgment," replies Padin, "Che acted in the way I believe a Christian should. If I have to mention the name of a Christian who, also, has formed the mentality of all the true Christians

of the continent, the first would be Che Guevara."

"To put Che as a Christian is, in a way, a 'freshness' on our part," says Pastor Han. "But that leads us to what we discussed earlier: Can we get to the new man without Christ? I think that there are cases, I would say hidden cases, of Christs. That is the case of Che, where is manifested a new man without the profession of the Christian faith."

All the other members of the group also agree that the thinking and the work of Camilo Torres has had a great influence on them, "Particularly in discussing the question of violent revolution, Camilo Torres has helped us very much. Last year while we were cutting cane, we which we organizoi during the evenings."

"I would like to say something about the interpretation of Che as a Christian" adds Pastor Batista. "I do not think that our position can be confused with that attitude the church has shown so many times: To make Christian of persons who are convenient to them, even when not long before they had burned them at the stake. It is not that. It is that in the figure of Che comes together the new man, and it is from that perspective that we have to analyze him as Christian. And the task of the church is to make new men even if they are outside of the church. To the Marxist we must not say 'Come to the church so that we cari make of you a new man' but 'continue as a Marxist in your position as a new man.' This new concept of man is precisely one of the most important points of the dialogue (the dialogue on the level of the cane field, the factory the countryside, not in the European sense of the air conditioned office). And in that dialogue it is our task always to remind the revolution that the central concern is man."

FROM AMBIGUITY TO EFFICACY

Let us move on now to Latin America, compañeros. In what ways has the chir which during long periods has been, and in some places continues to be, prop of reactionary regimes, revised that position? In some countries of Latin

America how does it help seek a change?

"I think that the church," says Piedra, "Maybe with the example of Cuba, is taking seriously its participation. It aspires to be able to cooperate when it is time to build, because now it is also sacrificing itself to destroy that which is no longer of any use. I think that contribution will be important because when sacrifice is shared, when we pay up' what history demands, then history gives the right to form an opinion and set down guidelines when it is time to move to building the country."

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"The church has talked much about the sense of community," says Batista, "and nevertheless has not gone beyond, it seems to me, the individualist stage. Maybe one of the most important reflections for us, church persons, is the communitarian integration that is achieved in a work camp like this. Maybe it will help us to understand where we must seek the basis for a true community. It is extraordinary, but the people in this group always think in terms of the other.' An old aspiration of the church is being realized here in this work camp, while certain ecclesiastical sectors continue to think of preaching in foreign lands."

Some of you work regularly in another labor center and have voluntarily asked to be transferred to the cane field. I would like to find out f there are any differences between this camp and other work centers. Human relations, for example, are they different?

"I can offer y experience because I work in a sugar factory," says Pastor Piedra. "And naturally, this is not even the shadow of what that is. There still exists in our factories -- even though there is much talk about companionship and comradeship that comewhat erotictical spirit that we have inherited and that terrible habit of not feeling Here, I can identified with one other. assure you that everything is different. Just think, here we have brought together more than 500 an, who come from different places, who possibly will never see each other again (God knows when we will meet in another activity like this). Bat there is something that is impossible to define, a completely different human relationship. Maybe it is the precursor of the new man."

Reprinted from Cuba Interacioni
(lav na), August 1970.

Interview text by Joaquin Anarise.
Photos by J.A. Figueroa na

Cristóbal Pascual.

Translated by Barbara C. Pesso..

Edited by Alice Hageman