worth of fish they took out of that territory last year, the Territory of Alaska did not get a dollar. They pay the bills by making an affidavit, as the Senator from Washington knows. The result is that they send up fleets of Chinese and Japanese into the waters of Alaska in May and get $11,000,000 worth of salmon and can them. They are gone to-morrow. There are two watchmen at the cannery whom they leave there. There is not a schoolhouse nor a church nor a home built in Alaska nor a child educated there out of that $11,000,000.

Senator DILLINGHAM. They pay it to the Government in the nature of an internal-revenue tax.

Senator NELSON. No; Jarvis lobbied a bill through here amending the fishery law by which they escaped the canning tax they had to pay before. They can do it by putting in what they call a special fry and giving a certificate that they put in so many fry and turning that in in lieu of taxes. They have robbed one-third of our Alaska road fund by just that trick.

The CHAIRMAN. They do not put in the amount of fry, either.

Senator NELSON. Jarvis was down here and lobbied it through one winter, after he was employed by a canning company and had left the government service.

Mr. WICKERSHAM. Senator Nelson opens a suggestion. They paid a tax of 4 cents a case, one-quarter of which was paid into the court to pay the expenses of running the courts. Even before the bill was passed we paid double the fees paid in any other Territory by litigants. Then they doubled the fees again, and we pay four times the fees for litigation in that Territory to-day that are paid anywhere else, simply because the Guggenheims wanted that money. We are opposed to the Guggenheims grabbing our fish without fair taxation, and we are opposed to granting them concessions.

Senator CLARKE, of Arkansas. May men escape the court costs?

Mr. WICKERSHAM. Yes, sir; justice in many cases in Alaska is absolutely barred by reason of it.

Senator CLARKE, of Arkansas. What ground is it put on?

Mr. WICKERSHAM. It is put on the ground that the attorney-general has the right under the statute to increase the fees.

Senator CLARKE, of Arkansas. Under what pretext does he act? That the people have to come such long distances?

Mr. WICKERSHAM. No; simply that there was not money there to maintain the courts.

Senator NELSON. And I presume the fees were raised on the ground that it cost more to live up there.

Mr. WICKERSHAM. Yes; that is true.

Senator OWEN. Judge, I want to ask a question with regard to the President's opportunity of knowing the things you have pointed out. They have not been presented to him by you?

Mr. WICKERSHAM. No, sir; they have not, because he refused positively to see me.

Senator OWEN. Were you elected as Delegate from Alaska?

Mr. WICKERSHAM. Yes, sir; I was; and I made an application to the President for an interview, saying to Mr. Carpenter that I wanted to talk to the President about these matters. He sent word through Mr. Carpenter that his mind was made up and he did not think it was any use to talk to me, and he declined to see me. Otherwise we might have got something done before this bill came here.

Now, gentlemen, on the seventh page of this bill there is another matter which is, I think, of extreme importance to the people of Alaska. We have three railroads in Alaska to-day. We have the White Pass, running from Skagway, and the Copper River road, which is being built up the Copper River from Cordova.

Senator DILLINGHAM. That is in British territory.

Mr. WICKERSHAM. No; the White Pass Railway run from Skagway across to the international boundary line through Alaska. Senator DILLINGHAM. It takes us into British territory.

Senator NELSON. That is the road running down from White Horse.

Mr. WICKERSHAM. Yes; it is owned by British capital.

Senator NELSON. About 30 miles of it is in our territory and the balance is in British territory.

Mr. WICKERSHAM. I am told that the Guggenheims have a working arrangement by which they control it. Certainly they control the Copper River road, which is built 102 miles up the Copper River. They have a contract, I understand, for the purchase of the Alaska Central, which is built northward from Seward about 75 miles.

Those three roads are the three gateways to the interior of Alaska, and the man who controls those three roads controls Alaska; he controls the coal of Alaska; he controls the copper; he controls the transportation rates.

The Guggenheims also own all the steamship lines which run up there except one independent, and they are fighting that independent line now by cutting rates and refusing to give them any facilities under the interstate-commerce law; and that matter is now pending before the Interstate Commerce Commission. I have here the briefs in the matter. The Guggenheims have their briefs in here, and they are protesting that Alaska is not a Territory; that it is a district; and being a district, something less than a Territory, the interstate-commerce law do not apply there, because under the Hepburn Act the interstate-commerce laws apply only to Territories and States. That is the question before the Interstate Commerce Commission at this

moment.

The CHAIRMAN. As was remarked yesterday, Judge, that particular thing, extending the interstate-commerce laws to the district of Alaska, can be cured by a single line inserted in the bill.

Mr. WICKERSHAM. Yes; and the line is in the bill. I want to call attention to it. The bill provides, on page 7, beginning with the proviso on that page—

That all franchises, privileges, or concessions granted shall forbid the issue of stock or bonds except in exchange for actual cash, or for property at a fair valuation, equal to the par value of the stock or bonds so issued; shall forbid the declaring of stock or bond dividends; and, in the case of public-service corporations—

Meaning railroads

shall provide for the effective regulation of the charges thereof, for the official inspection and regulation of the books and accounts of such corporations, and for the payment of a reasonable percentage of gross earnings into the treasury of the district of Alaska or of the municipality within which such franchises are granted and exercised.

Senator NELSON. If the word "reasonable" was there it might have. some meaning.

Mr. WICKERSHAM. But it appears to be the intention of this clause to bar the interstate commerce laws from Alaska and to supplant them with this vague power to the legislative commission. That is why I object to it.

Senator NELSON. The word "effective" means nothing at all there. Mr. WICKERSHAM. If the bill passes, the interstate commerce laws will not apply to Alaska. The Interstate Commerce Commission will be robbed of its present jurisdiction, and those railroads will be turned absolutely loose.

The CHAIRMAN. I may repeat what I said yesterday, that that whole subject can be effectively cured by the insertion of one line in the bill, or merely by calling Alaska a "Territory" instead of a district.

Mr. WICKERSHAM. I hope it will be inserted

The CHAIRMAN. I suppose it will be.

Mr. WICKERSHAM. And that that clause will be stricken out, because with that clause left in every Senator can see clearly that the interstate commerce law will be excluded from Alaska, and this commission, with these men at the head of it who are here lobbying for the Guggenheims, will have control of rates in Alaska.

The CHAIRMAN. To remove misapprehension on your part, which I am aware is quite innocent, I will state that that is the language conferring similar power on the civil government commission of the Philippines, and, I think, of Porto Rico.

Mr. WICKERSHAM. But the Philippines is not a Territory of the United States.

The CHAIRMAN. I just want to remove the misapprehension that there was some purpose in the administration bill on that point, because it has quoted exactly the existing law. The interstate commerce laws ought to be extended to that district.

Mr. WICKERSHAM. They are extended, if it is a Territory, if you will just declare that in your bill. The first clause of my bill proposes to organize the Territory of Alaska, and says so in plain English. If you should adopt that measure you would never have any more of this controversy. Notwithstanding that, the Supreme Court of the United States has declared that it is an organized Territory, and, in my judgment, as a lawyer, nothing that this committee can now do will ever degrade it.

The CHAIRMAN. I did not mean to interrupt you.

Senator CLARKE, of Arkansas. We shall have to determine how much further time to give the judge. He ought to have some additional time.

Mr. WICKERSHAM. I shall be glad to have some additional time.

The CHAIRMAN. The judge has been interrupted, and I suggest, if it meets approval, as the time decided upon has expired, that we allow him fifteen minutes additional. That would make about three hours, including the time occupied yesterday.

Senator CLARKE, of Arkansas. I will not indicate that I am in favor of any particular bill, but my objection goes to the whole project of legislating for a lot of disconnected, disassociated, noncontiguous neighborhoods, with no coherence, with no public opinion to be created into law. It is the history of such communities that they are subject to the blandishments and outrages of grafters. They are in that situation, not because of the individual dereliction of any people out there,

because no doubt there are quite as good people there as can be found anywhere else, but it is inherent in that stage of development in such a community that they have not that knowledge of each other's wants and that relationship which are requisite for a government.

Senator OWEN. They seem to have plenty of newspapers there. Senator CLARKE, of Arkansas. I understand something about newspaper men, and I may say something about that, if necessary. I do not know that they are any worse or any better than the average newspaper man, but Alaska has not reached the necessary stage of development yet. The settlements are extended over a wide territory, too wide to have the benefit of correct public opinion until it is too late to recall the spoliation of the valuable things that are now attracting the genius-I will not put it any stronger-of modern life.

The judge is pointing out things that are absolutely startling. To turn them over to any 8, 10, 15, or 25 men, no matter how selected, either by the President or by the people themselves, dominated as they are by these gigantic and dominant corporations he speaks of, it seems to me makes it fit for the Congress to continue to regulate them for a time until the country there can fill up a little better with people, until their population can be increased in a way which will give them a basis upon which a government can rest. I can see that if we pass the bill it simply donates to whoever is in control everything worth five dollars in the Territory.

Mr. WICKERSHAM. Yes, sir; that will be the effect of it.

Senator CLARKE, of Arkansas. Even to have an elective legislature, such influences dominate well-organized States of the Union, to say nothing of such communities as are there.

Mr. WICKERSHAM. We have more white people in the Territory of Alaska than you have in Nevada. There are more white people in the Territory of Alaska than you had in any other United States Territory when it was organized as a Territory.

Senator CLARKE, of Arkansas. It seems to be a community with only three railroads.

Senator FRAZIER. Are your communities connected by telegraph lines?

Mr. WICKERSHAM. Yes; and roads.

Senator FRAZIER. Telephones.

Mr. WICKERSHAM. Yes, sir. We knew the result of the general election for Delegate in Alaska the night of the election by midnight. Senator CLARKE, of Arkansas. That indicates that your communities are up and down the coast.

Mr. WICKERSHAM. That is where they are; up and down certain lines along the coast and a line toward the interior and along the rivers to the sea.

Senator CLARKE, of Arkansas. The great body of the Territory, where the valuable products you speak of are found, is not accessible. The CHAIRMAN. At the first meeting of the committee Senator Nelson took a map of the Territory and showed the committee the difficulty of communication, the absence of roads, etc., and where the various sections were reached. Will you proceed, Judge.

Mr. WICKERSHAM. The next objection I make to section 10 is the last clause in it, which reads as follows:

And, in the case of public-service corporations, shall provide for the effective regulation of the charges thereof, for the official inspection and regulation of

the books and accounts of such corporations, and for the payment of a reasonable percentage of gross earnings into the treasury of the district of Alaska or of the municipality within which such franchises are granted and exercised.

In other words, we are to have no taxation from these great corporations in support of government in Alaska, except on small gross earnings which shall be turned into the general treasury for the use of this particular commission. A municipality may have extensive works of all kinds within its borders and it could not levy one cent of taxation upon them. Nothing could be done in the way of getting anything out of these public-utility corporations for the support of local government nor for the support of the government at large except by way of a gross-earnings tax. That is unfair to the people of Alaska. It will aid the great public corporations and will retard the people.

Senator FRAZIER. How do you reach the conclusion that it takes away the power of taxation from a municipality?

Mr. WICKERSHAM. Just from what it says.

Senator FRAZIER. They have the power to make laws under the former clause of the bill.

Senator NELSON. Under this bill they have a general power to levy all other kinds of taxes.

Senator FRAZIER. That clause does not necessarily exclude the power to tax.

Mr. WICKERSHAM. I want to call the attention of the committee to that particular proposition. There is nothing in the bill anywhere which limits the commission in any respect in the power of taxation. They may levy 5 or 10 per cent, or any amount they choose upon people. They may levy upon one community and not upon another. There is no regularity in the limit of taxation. And that is true of all their powers. There is no limit anywhere, absolutely none. They may start gambling wide open in fifteen minutes, and the saloons off in the other direction. All sorts of crime and vice of that kind may be legalized. Under my bill it is absolutely prohibited, and you will have your appeal to Congress and not to the local legislature.

Senator CLARKE, of Arkansas. There is an admission of weakness right there. If the legislature can not control those two things, what can it control? If it can not stand up against the influences behind vice, what can it control?

Mr. WICKERSHAM. I will explain that in a moment. Governor Hoggett, who has been a head lobbyist for Guggenheims down here four or five years, while being paid a salary as governor of the Territory of Alaska, is, of course, opposed to a bill giving Alaska any right to local government. First, the Guggenheims are opposed to it, and every man, woman, or child that they can control, and their newspapers, are fighting the bill to give Alaska a territorial form of government in the way of an elective territorial legislature. Governor Hoggett came down here and said openly and publicly that the people of Alaska, could not be intrusted to elect a local legislature. Why? Because, if you do that, the people will throw gambling wide open and the saloons wide open, and all that sort of thing.

Senator CLARKE, of Arkansas. Do you agree with him about that? Mr. WICKERSHAM. I do not.

Senator CLARKE, of Arkansas. Why did you put it in the bill?