President Holmes-We would be glad to hear from Col. Heft, of New Haven, on this question of storage batteries. Col. Heft, can you enlighten us any on the subject?

Mr. Heft-I am sorry to say that my experience with storage batteries has not been very satisfactory, judging from the commercial side of it. We have eight installations, and they have been very expensive to maintain. Until the manufacturers can develop a storage battery of more satisfactory type than those which they are producing at the present time, I would not recommend installing any more storage batteries.

Mr. Wason-I would ask Col. Heft if the size of the battery chosen was commensurate with the work which the battery was called upon to do.

Mr. Heft—I can only say that when we installed these batteries we were guided wholly by the advice of the manufacturers, and when we complained of the expense, they said that our superintendence had not been sufficient. Believing that we were short in this respect we suggested that they send us a superintendent to look after these batteries. The result in dollars and cents has been practically the same. I say this without hesitation; as I do not believe any member of the association should state what he does not believe and know from the records of the books of his corporation to be true. I simply speak from the standpoint of the comptroller's report of the cost of maintaining the batteries on our road.

Mr. Davison-I ask Col. Heft if the expense which he mentions is due very largely to the cost of simply superintending these stations or is it largely made up of trouble and necessary repairs?

Col. Heft-The principal cost is the replacing of the plates. Mr. F. Uhlenhaut, Pittsburg-I think the question of storage battery performance depends upon the amount of work required from each battery. In Pittsburg we had three batteries, all of which were floating on the line and left practically to themselves. Two of the batteries have been in service for about four years and the other battery for about two years. The two batteries in service for four years have given excellent

results with practically no depreciation whatever. The second battery-in service for two years, was found to be overcharging at night, due to large feeder capacity at that point, deteriorated rapidly, due to excessive temperature in battery room, and has been rather expensive in maintenance of positive plates. I think the question of the amount of work the battery is required to do is the determining element in the whole matter.

Mr. C. W. Wason, Cleveland-In considering the question of location of substations, there is one thing which should be thought of and that is the possibility of using the substations as a depot for freight and the selling of tickets, etc., rather than to consider only the question of having the substation placed in the best locality from an engineering standpoint. We have had several substations on our lines, located by scientific gentlemen, who did not appreciate the operating expense involved, and who installed the batteries at points where nothing else could be done other than taking care of the batteries. If something could be sacrificed in the location of the battery from the engineering point of view, and they could be placed in charge of those who have work to do other than taking care of the battery, there would be a gain in the cost of maintaining the battery.

Mr. E. P. Roberts, Cleveland-Mr. Wason's statement recalls the original design of a road having substations with storage batteries, which have been placed in operation. The question was whether to build two substations at what might be considered a normal distance apart, or whether to build one station in a place where an attendant had to be in order to take care of the package freight business that was anticipated. The consideration of the first cost included the feeder wire, and the cost of the plant complete from substation and was somewhat greater than the cost of the two substations. But, capitalizing the salaries necessarily paid to the employes in the two substations, plus the attendant in the place where they wanted an attendant for package express, almost neutralized the difference in the cost; and moreover, one important element of the running expense cost was this-that in two substations a large

President Holmes-We would be glad to hear from Col. Heft, of New Haven, on this question of storage batteries. Col. Heft, can you enlighten us any on the subject?

Mr. Heft-I am sorry to say that my experience with storage batteries has not been very satisfactory, judging from the commercial side of it. We have eight installations, and they have been very expensive to maintain. Until the manufacturers can develop a storage battery of more satisfactory type than those which they are producing at the present time, I would not recommend installing any more storage batteries.

Mr. Wason-I would ask Col. Heft if the size of the battery chosen was commensurate with the work which the battery was called upon to do.

Mr. Heft-I can only say that when we installed these batteries we were guided wholly by the advice of the manufacturers, and when we complained of the expense, they said that our superintendence had not been sufficient. Believing that we were short in this respect we suggested that they send us a superintendent to look after these batteries. The result in dollars and cents has been practically the same. I say this without hesitation; as I do not believe any member of the association should state what he does not believe and know from the records of the books of his corporation to be true. ply speak from the standpoint of the comptroller's report of the cost of maintaining the batteries on our road.

Mr. Davison-I ask Col. Heft if the expense which he mentions is due very largely to the cost of simply superintending these stations or is it largely made up of trouble and necessary repairs?

Col. Heft-The principal cost is the replacing of the plates. Mr. F. Uhlenhaut, Pittsburg-I think the question of storage battery performance depends upon the amount of work required from each battery. In Pittsburg we had three batteries, all of which were floating on the line and left practically to themselves. Two of the batteries have been in service for about four years and the other battery for about two years. The two batteries in service for four years have given excellent

results with practically no depreciation whatever. The second. battery-in service for two years, was found to be overcharging at night, due to large feeder capacity at that point, deteriorated rapidly, due to excessive temperature in battery room, and has been rather expensive in maintenance of positive plates. I think the question of the amount of work the battery is required to do is the determining element in the whole matter.

Mr. C. W. Wason, Cleveland-In considering the question of location of substations, there is one thing which should be thought of and that is the possibility of using the substations as a depot for freight and the selling of tickets, etc., rather than to consider only the question of having the substation placed in the best locality from an engineering standpoint. We have had several substations on our lines, located by scientific gentlemen, who did not appreciate the operating expense involved, and who installed the batteries at points where nothing else could be done other than taking care of the batteries. If something could be sacrificed in the location of the battery from the engineering point of view, and they could be placed in charge of those who have work to do other than taking care of the battery, there would be a gain in the cost of maintaining the battery.

Mr. E. P. Roberts, Cleveland-Mr. Wason's statement recalls the original design of a road having substations with storage batteries, which have been placed in operation. The question was whether to build two substations at what might be considered a normal distance apart, or whether to build one station in a place where an attendant had to be in order to take care of the package freight business that was anticipated. The consideration of the first cost included the feeder wire, and the cost of the plant complete from substation and was somewhat greater than the cost of the two substations. But, capitalizing the salaries necessarily paid to the employes in the two substations, plus the attendant in the place where they wanted an attendant for package express, almost neutralized the difference in the cost; and moreover, one important element of the running expense cost was this-that in two substations a large

part of the money went into machinery, which has a considerable depreciation and repair account, and a possibly increased repair account due to lightning. On the other hand, with the one substation, the money went to a greater degree into feed wire on which the interest only was to be paid and practically no depreciation or repair account, because the pole line was not increased in size. That is an important matter which is sometimes not taken into consideration-that it is not only the difference in the interest account, but whether one investment has a greater depreciation and repair account, as compared with some other investment. When the specifications for that road were submitted to two representatives, one from each of the larger companies manufacturing such machinery, each immediately claimed that there were not sufficient substations for the best results. They had a diagram giving the length of the line and distance, but did not take into account the actual local conditions. Mr. Wason very properly refers to these local conditions as being an important factor in the matter. I consider that good engineering includes consideration of matters of a financial as well as technical character.

I have been informed, as to the Union Traction Co., of Indiana, that their storage batteries have proved efficient as lightning arresters and that at times of heavy storms they throw out the differential boosters. By throwing them out the battery discharges less for such time, but they have been very effective in preventing trouble from lightning.

The first road to which I referred proposes to start very shortly a milk train from the end of the road, to run into the principal city, a distance of thirty-eight miles; the train to start at three o'clock in the morning. The power house ordinarily starts up at five o'clock. The milk train will be run in with current supplied from the storage battery, and the power house will not have to start up any earlier than is the case now. With storage batteries, like everything else, each case depends on local conditions. We have one line, on which we have just decided we will not put storage batteries at the present time, though they would effect a considerable economy, because we