is incessant and an abundance of faith is required in those who would direct such work.

As the work of developing these designs has advanced, experience has shown the possibility of better and simpler methods and the steady continuance of experiments has extended our knowledge of the theoretical possibilities. Consequently, new designs have been proposed and developed and we now have in production a large number of machines which we consider greatly superior to those which are now being put into service. This process of experimental development will continue and the production and test of each new machine will extend our knowledge and make possible further advances.

Our machines at Newport and Chicago and other machines of about the same date are of what we call the "two stage" type. The Newport machine has two compartments with three rows of moving buckets in each compartment, and the Chicago machine has two compartments with four rows of moving buckets in each compartment. Our later large condensing machines have four stages or compartments with two rows of moving buckets in each. All the details of their design have been worked out in such a manner that their construction is greatly simplified and the steam economy will presumably be much increased.

Thus, such successes as we may accomplish in the future will be the result of the large experience which responsibility for our existing work has entailed. We have been through long trials and have combated many predictions of failure, but the facts seem to indicate that we have succeeded and to promise that we will in future accomplish greater

successes.

Respectfully submitted,

W. L. R. EMMET.

Vice-President Ely-Gentlemen, the paper is open for discussion. We are all very much indebted to Mr. Emmet for the valuable paper which he has presented to the meeting. I will call upon Mr. John I. Beggs, of Milwaukee, and ask him if he will kindly open the discussion?

Mr. Beggs-Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen: I did not expect to be called upon to discuss this question of steam turbines -the request to do so is a surprise; yet it is a subject I am deeply interested in, as I believe every other member of this Association is, who is required to spend such large amounts of money as we are in producing steam. I have listened with a great deal of interest to Mr. Emmet's paper, and have discussed the subject with him to some extent. And as it was

my pleasure and privilege some years ago to be associated with Mr. Emmet, I have a great deal of respect for his engineering ability and promises.

Engineering circles generally are waiting with a great deal of interest the results of the tests now being made in the power plant of the Commonwealth Electric Company of Chicago, with the first 5,000-kw. turbine unit that has been installed. I went to see the turbine during the time of its construction, and I am very hopeful that the prediction of the General Electric Company that steam turbines would become of quite general use, and which they have given us reason to expect might be realized, is about to be fulfilled. I have had considerable doubt about this at times, for the reason that some of the most eminent engineers-I may say those among the very first engineers of this country, those whose reputations have been tested by almost a half century of work, and whose experience is large— have given expression to a doubt as to the successful operation and economy which would be shown by the steam turbine. Being pretty closely brought in contact with some of these engineers, and having discussed the question with them from time to time in the past two or three years, I naturally had greater doubts upon the question of the steam turbine than I might otherwise have had. I do not see, however, that there is anything we can do except to wait until the curves and tests which Mr. Emmet indicates are going to be made, have been made and we have the results before us.

In this connection I desire to throw out a suggestion as to whether or not, about the time that the steam turbine has reached the stage of perfection suggested by Mr. Emmet and the manufacturers of it, there is not a new power looming up which may as far surpass the steam turbine as the steam turbine surpasses the reciprocating engine, at least so far as the matter of economy goes. I refer to the gas engine. We have given considerable thought to it for the last two years. If the predictions made for the gas engine, in using gas now produced as by-products, or producer gas from plants installed in connection with our steam plants, are realized, we can cut the cost

of a kilowatt of current in half, and possibly reduce it twothirds in cost. I think this is an important question. There is one large engine-building concern in this country which has recently acquired the right to build in this country the Nuremberg gas engine. They propose to have one of these engines installed in St. Louis, twelve months hence. There is also a 3,000 h. p. gas engine to be direct connected to a 2,000-kw. generator which it is likewise proposed to install in the St. Louis Exposition. In the Northwest, where coal is such a factor that we are paying $3.50 for 2,000 lbs. of Youghiogheny screenings, where four years ago it cost us only $1.70, you can appreciate that any device which will bring down the cost of producing steam is of great moment. The element of power going to operate a car mile to-day becomes a very serious question, and if the cost of generating power can be cut in half and that without the use of a steam power plant, it becomes a very important factor.

As I said at the outset, I appreciate very greatly the labor Mr. Emmet has personally given to the development of the steam turbine, because he has devoted to it two or three years of his time almost continuously. I also appreciate the efforts of the General Electric Company to reduce the cost of steam turbines that is one of the important elements in the proposition. Some of you gentlemen will recollect our discussion at Detroit. When the paper was read at that time the author of it, I have no doubt inspired by the manufacturers, was generous enough to propose to give us the steam turbine and the generator with it, at a cost not exceeding that of the reciprocating engine and the generator. At that time I raised the question that the cost of the production of that unit must be very greatly under that of a reciprocating engine and a generator. I am pleased to state that we can now buy a steam turbine unit such as has been described this morning, the entire unit, for about the cost of a reciprocating engine. That much progress has been made in eleven months. The paper presented at Detroit was by a representative of the Westinghouse Company, building the Parsons turbine, and with whom I took direct issue

I claimed that the users of this apparatus were entitled to some of the saving that was effected in the greatly reduced cost of producing the apparatus. I do not think I am divulging any secret when I state that the cost of this unit is greatly reduced; in fact, inquiries which I have made, of recent date, indicate that I can buy a steam turbine unit, with generator complete, at about the cost of a reciprocating engine of equal capacity. Of course, with the slower speed of the reciprocating engine the cost of the generator becomes one-half of the engine itself— in other words, the cost of the generator on a reciprocating engine, running 75 revolutions a minute, is about one-half the cost of the engine. That amount is saved in the turbine, and that is important.

I may say further, on the other hand, that one element which will come up in the question of the use of gas engines will be the greatly increased cost of the engine itself. It is a question of commercial calculation, as to whether the greatly increased investment will be saved in the greatly reduced cost of producing power.

Vice-President Ely-This is an interesting subject. Mr. Beggs' remarks are of much value and I hope that others will take part in this discussion.

Referring to the very interesting subject of gas engines, of which Mr. Beggs spoke, I might merely allude to the fact that in the new plant of the Lackawanna Steel Company, at Buffalo, by apparatus quite simple in its nature, the escaping gases from stacks of the blast furnace and the ovens are recovered, washed and conducted to the engine room, where they are used as fuel, costing nothing to the plant, for an installation of 40,000 h. p. of gas engines.

Mr. Beggs-I wish to say a word further. It is a very important point, particularly to investors in these properties. We have sometimes on that account to look at matters differently from the purely operating standpoint of these plants. The tendency of the times is toward consolidation of electric railway and electric lighting properties in the various cities. It is a natural combination in the interests of the public; the

public gets the benefit of it. There has been formed in the West a large establishment to produce coke for domestic, furnace and foundry use. This company is building sixty ovens, at the present time, and in the manufacture of the coke their gas becomes a by-product. They have already taken the initial steps in an attempt to acquire the franchise in that city for the purpose of distributing and marketing their by-product-in other words, they will either compete with the gas companies, or put in electric generating plants and try to dispose of their current at such a rate as we could not approach or hope to displace with other classes of power. Therefore, it becomes important to the members of this Association that if possible they put in generating units so as to take at small cost from these coke ovens their by-product of gas and thereby keep them out of the market as competitors in our business. That is the reason, Mr. Chairman, why I raised this question, that we may set the inventive genius of this country at work to produce a gas engine so that it will be possible to avail ourselves of the by-product referred to.

Mr. E. G. Connette, Syracuse-It occurs to me, Mr. Chairman, while the discussion of the gas engine is interesting, the real subject of discussion is steam turbines; and that is what I think the members of the Association would like to have considered.

Vice-President Ely-I was about to suggest that perhaps it is not quite correct to enter upon a discussion of gas engines at length, when the subject of steam turbines is up, and such a fine paper upon that subject has been read to us.

Mr. Connette-I suggest, as the gas engine question is a very interesting one, that the Executive Committee might take cognizance of the fact and have the matter brought up at the next annual convention for discussion; but I think it would be proper, in deference to Mr. Emmet, who has presented this able paper, that we should now discuss the question of steam turbines.

Vice-President Ely-I am sure we would like to hear from Mr. Connette on this question of steam turbines.