Mr. HOGGATT. He does not; he could not possibly do so, unless it should be with one of those teachers assigned by the Bureau of Education to a sectarian school who might be guilty of some misconduct, or something of that kind, which would draw the governor's attention to the particular teacher.

Senator DICK. How does that scheme work out?

Mr. HOGGATT. It is working out very well now.

Senator DICK. Then, as I understand it, you would not advise that any interference with the present system be made in this bill?

Mr. HOGGATT. I think it would be a mistake. Those schools are supported by yearly appropriations from Congress. Congress and the Appropriations Committees would naturally require information from year to year as to the expenditure of the money that is appropriated. As it is now, the officer responsible for the disbursement of the fund is here at the call of Congress whenever it sees fit; and you can administer territorial affairs of that character as well from Washington as you can from any other point. Those schools will always have to be supported by appropriations from Congress.

There was some distrust of the management of the schools a few years ago, which, I think, was simply due to the fact that the men in charge had become superannuated, and an attempt was made to put that duty upon the governor about the time I took office. I protested against it, because of the impossibility of the governor getting around. There is no means of travel; appropriations would be necessary; he could not be sure of them, and he could not lay out any plans. I thought it would be far better for the administration to be in the hands of the Bureau of Education, with the change that had been made, younger men and newer methods being adopted. So we bent our efforts toward extending the usefulness to which we could put the appropriation, until now we can use it for the care of the indigent Indians. We have given up a good deal of the book learning, and are teaching them more along industrial lines. The superintendents in Alaska are bright, capable young men, very much interested in the work; and we have, in the last few years, made some very considerable advancement in the care and treatment of the natives. How long we shall be able to maintain that I do not know, because the work is so discouraging. If you can not see results from your efforts, by and by you get discouraged, and that is the dangerous feature of work of that character. Whatever results you have are so slow in coming that if you keep the same men in the work too long they are apt to lose interest and get indifferent, and results fail.

Senator DICK. Then there is another condition, at least as to the natives up there. There is a great deal of concern about their health, is there not?

Mr. HOGGATT. Yes; there is a great deal of talk about it.

Senator DICK. I have heard a great deal of talk about it, but I do not know anything about it.

Mr. HOGGATT. Under the extension of the powers of the Bureau of Education, by reason of the changing of the wording of the appropriation (which allowed us to use a portion of it for medicinal purposes), we are taking up the question of the health of the natives and are employing doctors and nurses who look after their physical needs and welfare. We started in only a little more than a year ago, and the first thing we did was to gather some statistics as to the real con

ditions. There is a lot of irresponsible talk about all the conditions up there. I insisted upon the doctors going out and making investigations of the health and physical conditions of the natives all through the southeastern section and getting some data upon which we could base our efforts in the future. That information was collected, and a system has been organized for the care and treatment of their physical needs. Incidentally, we took during two years a census of the natives in southeastern Alaska, where we could get at them and see what the increase and decrease was. We found an increase of just one out of about 10,000. There were just as many deaths as births, barring one. That is the only accurate information we have been able to get as to whether or not the native population is declining; and that would indicate that it is about at a standstill. Senator DICK. What is the salary of the governor? Mr. HOGGATT. Five thousand dollars.

Senator DICK. What other salaried officers are there under the present government? I refer, of course, to the principal officers. Mr. HOGGATT. There is only one general officer, and that is the governor, who has a secretary. He is allowed to expend $2,000 out of an appropriation of $5,500 for clerk hire. Out of that he hires a secretary.

Senator DICK. And the surveyor-general?

Mr. HOGGATT. The surveyor-general has a salary of $4,000. He is ex officio secretary of state.

Senator DICK. What is the fact as to the cost of living at Juneau? Is it very much higher than it is in the United States?

Mr. HOGGATT. No; it is about the same as it is in the cities. The cost of food products and things that you eat and wear is about the same in Juneau as it is in the cities. Of course, it is much higher than it is in the smaller towns. It costs us now about 80 cents a day per man to furnish food for men who are working-that is, buying things in large quantities. It used to cost about 65 to 70 cents, when I was feeding 100 men. I am referring now to the actual cost of provisions. They have gone up in price, so that it costs at my place about 90 cents per man for food. Then I have to prepare it, and furnish fuel, and all that sort of thing; so that it costs me a little over a dollar a day per man now, and that is about what it would run for the towns.

Senator. CLARKE, of Arkansas. It was stated here a few days ago that there are 34 newspapers in Alaska. Do you know anything about them, their character, and where they are located?

Mr. HOGGATT. Every town, I think, has one or more. There are two at Juneau, one at Ketchikan, one at Wrangell, one at Skagway, two at Cordova, one at Valdez, one at Seward, three or four at Fairbanks, two at Nome, and one at Hot Springs. That is all I know of now; that is all that I can recall.

Senator CLARKE, of Arkansas. Have you ever seen any of them? Mr. HOGGATT. Oh, yes; I am charged with being the owner of one

of them.

Senator CLARKE, of Arkansas. Has Mr. Wickersham got one?
Mr. HOGGATT. I do not know.

Senator CLARKE, of Arkansas. Where do the papers circulate? Mr. HOGGATT. Only locally. I do not think there is a paper in the country that has a circulation of over two or three hundred. The

population is all in the towns; and these papers are principally dailies. They receive skeleton news-telegraph news-and then expand it.

Senator CLARKE, of Arkansas. From what you say as to the distance from one place to another, I should think the news would be pretty ancient by the time it got to neighboring towns.

Mr. HOGGATT. Oh, no; we get the important news every day.

Senator CLARKE, of Arkansas. I mean, if you relied on newspapers outside of your own towns.

Mr. HOGGATT. Yes; it would. But if the editors keep themselves thoroughly informed as to what is going on in the States by reading the dailies that are published there, it is astonishing how accurately they can make up the news from these skeleton telegrams, if they are so disposed and do not want to color it. A few words will give them a great deal of news.

Senator CLARKE, of Arkansas. Then they make most of their "Associated Press" dispatches by a process of intuition?

Mr. HOGGATT. Yes; it is following out what has been published. Of course, down in our section the papers are only about 3 days old when we get them, and there is always a general trend of events that they can read. So when they get these little skeleton dispatches, if they refer to anything that has occurred before, it is easy enough to make the padding. That is what I mean.

The CHAIRMAN. That is all, Governor. We are much obliged to you.

(The committee thereupon adjourned.)

FEBRUARY 18, 1910.

COMMITTEE ON THE TERRITORIES,

UNITED STATES SENATE,

Washington, D. C., Friday, February-18, 1910.

The committee met at 10.30 o'clock a. m.

Present: Senators Beveridge (chairman), Dillingham, Dick, Frazier, Owen, and Hughes.

Mr. John N. Steele, of New York City, and Mr. Stephen Birch, of Kennecoot, Alaska, appeared.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Steele, I have in my hands your letter of February 10, addressed to the committee, asking for a hearing for yourself and Mr. Birch, as you say, on behalf of the Alaska syndicate, composed of Messrs. J. P. Morgan & Co. and certain of the Messrs. Guggenheim. I have laid this request before the committee and the committee directed that a letter be sent to you saying that they would be pleased to hear you. You may proceed.

Mr. STEELE. Mr. Chairman, we should like very much, if it meets. with your views and the views of the members of the committee, that the hearing should be a public one. We have been accused in the press of doing so many things that are wrong that we should like to have this opportunity of setting ourselves right.

The CHAIRMAN. It shall be so ordered.

(The doors were thereupon opened to all persons wishing to enter, and the hearing declared a public one.)

The CHAIRMAN. These gentlemen that are coming in here now are present on another question that is to come up later. I do not know whether they will be interested in the proceedings this morning or not; but since the hearing has been made public, the doors are open.

Mr. STEELE. Mr. Chairman, with your permission, I think the matter can be more quickly and clearly brought out if you will allow me to ask Mr. Birch questions regarding the operations of the Alaska syndicate. I will take up the entire field, and then take up each operation independently.

The CHAIRMAN. Proceed in your own way.

Mr. STEELE. Then, when I get through, of course we shall be very glad to have any members of the committee ask Mr. Birch any questions they like.

STATEMENT OF MR. STEPHEN BIRCH, OF KENNECOTT, ALASKA,

Mr. STEELE. Please state what is your present occupation, Mr. Birch.

Mr. BIRCH. I am managing director of the Morgan-Guggenheim interests in Alaska.

Mr. STEELE. Do you mean by that that you are a director in the various corporations?

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Mr. BIRCH. Yes, sir.

Mr. STEELE. You are also the general manager of what are known as the Bonanza mines?

Mr. BIRCH. Yes, sir.

Mr. STEELE. Who compose what is known as the Alaska syndicate? Mr. BIRCH. The Messrs. Guggenheim and J. P. Morgan & Co.

Mr. STEELE. When you say "the Messrs. Guggenheim," do you mean M. Guggenheim Sons?

Mr. BIRCH. M. Guggenheim Sons.

Mr. STEELE. Who have charge of the affairs of that syndicate in New York?

Mr. BIRCH. Mr. S. W. Eccles, Mr. John N. Steele, and myself.
Mr. STEELE. Where is Mr. Eccles?

Mr. BIRCH. Mr. Eccles is at present in Mexico.

Mr. STEELE. Where he is on account of his health, is he not?
Mr. BIRCH. On account of his health.

Mr. STEELE. As I understand, the matters of the Alaska syndicate come to Mr. Eccles, you, and me; and after we have thrashed them out we submit them to the gentlemen in the syndicate?

Mr. BIRCH. To Mr. Daniel Guggenheim, Mr. Murray Guggenheim, Mr. S. R. Guggenheim, and the members of the firm of J. P. Morgan & Co.

The CHAIRMAN. Just at this point, so as to clear up the matter at the start, let me ask this question: Mr. Birch says the Alaska syndicate is composed of Morgan & Co., and M. Guggenheim Sons? Mr. STEELE. Yes, sir.

The CHAIRMAN. Who are the members of the firm of M. Guggenheim Sons? How many are there, and who are they?

Mr. STEELE. Please tell us how many persons and who compose that firm.

Mr. BIRCH. Of M. Guggenheim Sons, there is Daniel, Isaac, Murray, S. R., Simon, Benjamin, and William.

Mr. STEELE. Do any of the members of that firm, with the exception of Messrs. Daniel Guggenheim, Murray Guggenheim, and S. R. Guggenheim, have any participation in or direction of the affairs of the Alaska syndicate?

Mr. BIRCH. No, sir,

Mr. STEELE. About when was this Alaska syndicate formed? In the spring of 1906, was it not?

Mr. BIRCH. In the spring of 1906.

Mr. STEELE. In what enterprises in Alaska is that syndicate interested?

Mr. BIRCH. They are interested in the Northwestern Commercial Company, the Alaska Steamship Company, the Northwest Fisheries, the Kennecoot Mines Company, the Copper River and Northwestern Railway, and the Katalla Company.

Mr. STEELE. We will take up first the Northwestern Commercial Company. Please state what interest this syndicate has in that company, when it was acquired, and in what way it was acquired—I mean, by purchase, or how?

Mr. BIRCH. It was acquired by the purchase of stock in the open market from John Rosene and the firm of J. P. Morgan & Co.

Senator FRAZIER. What company are you speaking of now!