HI. OF R.]

Compensation of the President, &c.

Mr. SEDGWICK moved to amend this proposition, so as to give to the members of the Senate six dollars per day, and five to the members of the House of Representatives. His reasons for introducing this distinction was, that the convention had made it in the constitution. The Senators are required to be of an advanced age, and are elected for six years. Now this term taken out of the life of a man, passed the middle stage, may be fairly deemed equal to a whole life; for it was to be expected, that few, if any, of the Senators could return to their former occupations, when the period for retirement arrived; indeed, after six years spent in other pursuits, it may be questioned whether a man would be qualified to return with any prospect of success.

[JULY 16, 1789.

the Senate; thus again we are upon a footing. Now, unless gentlemen mean that we should depress ourselves, and thereby set the Senate above us, I cannot conceive what foundation there will be for a discrimination.

Mr. LEE.-I am in favor of the motion for discriminating between the Senate and this House, because the constitution has done it in a variety of modes. The qualifications are superior; a Senator must be a man advanced in life, and have been nine years a citizen of the United States; while a younger man, who has been but seven years a citizen, may obtain a seat in this House.

He did not say six dollars was more than a compensation for their services and expenses; but as economy ought to be particularly studied by the Legislature, he had moved to reduce it. He hoped gentlemen would pay some deference to the public opinion, on the present occasion; this he thought to be in favor of small salaries. Not but a different sentiment might prevail in some of the States; perhaps different circumstances might warrant the difference of opinion. It was probable that five dollars, laid out in that part of the Union from which he came, would be more advantageous to the person, than a like sum laid out at the other extremity of the continent; but he believed, nevertheless, that something would be left to those gentlemen, out of the five dollars per day, after their expenses were paid; but even if a little self-denial was the consequence of this reduction, it would do but little harm; whereas the precedent might have a salutary influence upon the future ad-rated by a time-servingness to veering populaministration of the Government.

Mr.JACKSON.-I am opposed to this discrimination, because all have alike abandoned their particular pursuits in life, and all have equally engaged in the service of their common country. On what principle can this distinction then be contended for? Is it expected that a Senator shall eat more, or drink more costly liquors, than a member of the House of Representatives? I presume it is not; their expenses must be nearly equal. I can see but one reason that can be assigned for this difference, which is, that the Senate may sit longer than the House; but considering they are to receive pay accordingly, this reason is of no weight. The duties of both Houses are equal, and the pay ought to be alike. I will submit to the gentleman who brought this motion forward, whether it is not much worse to the personal interest of men in business to be taken off in the prime of life, than after the successful pursuit of some profession at an advanced age, when the natural and proper time of retirement arrives; and if so, his argument falls to the ground. But if the reverse is true, it will not support his motion, because, if we look around, our senses will inform us that this House contains as venerable and aged members as any within the walls of

The constitution has made a difference in the mode of election. The Senators are selected with peculiar care; they are the purified choice of the people, and the best men are likely to be preferred by such a choice; those who have shown the fullest proofs of their attachment to the public interest, and evinced to their countrymen their superior abilities. In order to bring forth such characters to partake of our public councils, I think every motive of honor and of interest ought to be called into action. If men are not brought forth who will maintain their own dignity, and promote the public interest by a firm and independent conduct, regardless of every risk, regardless of the voice of calumny or popular clamor, our Government will soon lose its importance and its energy. I contemplate, Mr. Speaker, the Senate as a barrier between the Executive and this branch of the Legislature, shielding the people from any apprehension of being attacked by an aspiring Magistracy on the one hand, and on the other from being desolated by the anarchy often generity. We shall gain these desirable objects at a trifling price, if we make a distinction of two or three dollars per day-a trifling allowance indeed to our most worthy sages. But, said the gentleman last up, there are as young men in the Senate as in this House: although there be, the time will come when none but the most venerable and respectable of our citizens, men whose hoary heads are silvered over with the honors of an experienced old age, men illustrious by their virtues and capacity, will have the public confidence ensured to them by the purity and notoriety of their principles.

Now is the time to deliberate and view every future circumstance which may arise from our decision; the importance of this principle hereafter, is infinitely above every advantage which the present members may derive from it. By it alone you may secure dignity and permanency to the Government, and happiness under its administration.

It is with difficulty, Mr. Speaker, that you can draw forth men of age and much experience to participate in the political concerns of their country. Retirement and reflection are incident to that period of life; they are sought for, and, when obtained, they are highly prized. The wise and virtuous sage, who from the mo

JULY 16, 1789.]

Compensation of the President, &c.

nitions of nature has discovered that his remaining years will be but few, must be incited by every motive that can operate on the human heart to continue those labors which he seeks to bury the remembrance of in the deeps of solitude. Honor may stimulate the ingenuous mind; but interest is a great reason of action, and may be usefully employed to influence old age. What I have now urged is in favor of the constitutional distinction; I approve of the amendment, but I wish the sun had been left out, that the provision might be determined according to the sense of the House, and not affect the principal question of discrimination. I am satisfied, sir, that there is no heart within these walls but beats with patriotic ardor, and has determined to pursue the noblest object, the public good. Nothing but the anxiety I feel for this, as connected with the present question, could have induced me to trouble the House with a repetition of what was dilated upon, on a former occasion. Let it then be considered, that on our decision depends the dignity of the Legislature, and the perpetuity of that Government, the glory and the hopes of the people of America, which, if now disappointed, must be succeeded by confusion and gloomy despair.

[H. OF R.

Mr. MOORE did not see the propriety of the discrimination proposed; the business of each House is equal, or if there is a difference in their legislative concerns, it is in favor of the House. He had no idea of giving the public money for such an idle purpose as the support of a fanciful dignity and superiority. His idea of the business was, each member ought to be compensated for his services, and nothing further.

Mr. VINING.-The arguments brought forward by my honorable friend from Virginia, (Mr. LEE,) have not proved satisfactory to my mind, that his favorite opinion with respect to discrimination is right. He has told us that the sages of America will be selected, and placed in this distinguished situation. True, sir, I expect venerable and respectable characters will find their way into every branch of the Government; but when I consider the mode in which the Senate is elected, I apprehend we may have there men whose wealth has created them the influence necessary to get in. If any thing is to be expected by this refined choice, it is that men of rank and opulence will draw the regard of the small and select circle of a State Legislature; while the Representatives in this House, being the choice of their fellow-citizens, among whom rank and dignity is rather unpopular, will consist of men in middling circumstances. Now if any thing is to be drawn from arguments like these, it is in favor of this House. But the whole of this is a subject on which we are better able to decide from our feelings, than from our discussions.

Mr. WHITE.-I object, sir, to a discrimination. I cannot perceive that difference in the constitution alluded to by the gentlemen. Among the Senators and the people in some of the ancient commonwealths, an artificial and political distinction was established, which was the case at Rome, in particular. There the Senators were considered as possessing some de- I am against the motion for another reason, gree of divinity, and the rest of the people were sir; it goes to reduce the compensation, which not admitted to associate with them. Can it I think is already set too low, to furnish good be supposed that the name of Senators will security for the happy administration of the render those members superior to their fellow-Government. In considering this subject, there citizens? I cannot see any difference in the are two important objects necessary to engage general estimation between a Senator and a Re- the attention of the Legislature. First, that the presentative, however great their sentiments compensation be not made an object for indiinay vary in their respective States; and can-gence to pursue; and second, that it be not so not conceive why any discrimination should be low as to throw the business of legislation into made in their allowances. the hands of rich and aspiring nabobs, but such as to compensate a man in the middle grade of life. These are generally men of business, who are fittest to conduct the concerns of their fellow-citizens. Now, in compensating this class of men, (for I would have the compensation proportioned to this class,) I do not take into consideration the sacrifices they make, by dedicating their time and abilities to the service of their country; but I confine myself merely to a compensation for their time and services. If the compensation is made an object for indigence, we shall have the sessions protracted to an extreme length, and the expense will be increased; if we make the reward barely commensurate with the services, you will have men of abilities, who will despatch the public business, and return to their private pursuits. If the business is done without pay, it may be productive of the most enormous evils. Were every member of the British House of Commons allowed a thousand guineas a year, they would

The independence of the members of this House may be injured by such a distinction; and the Senate, at some future day, may have it in their power to carry points, and be enabled to prolong the session, when it may be of great inconvenience to the House.

Mr. MADISON was of opinion that a discrimination was necessary; he observed, that it had been evidently contemplated by the constitution, to distinguish in favor of the Senate, that men of abilities and firm principles, whom the love and custom of a retired life might render averse to the fatigues of a public one, may be induced to devote the experience of years, and the acquisitions of study, to the service of their country. And unless something of this kind is adopted, it may be difficult to obtain proper characters to fill the Senate, as men of enterprise and genius will naturally prefer a seat in the House, considering it to be a more conspicuous situation.

H. OF R.]

Compensation of the President, &c.

be less venal; we should not find them purchasing their seats, and selling their votes for places and pensions. The very money given in this way would furnish a handsome compensation for every member, and add something considerable, annually, to their sinking fund.

[JULY 16, 1789.

a division of the House upon the question. But as I do not conceive that to be the case, I shall waive the proposition for the present. Mr. SEDGWICK said, that whenever he had a motion to make before the House, he endeavored to satisfy himself of the reasonableness and propriety of it. If he thought it proper, he did not consider the mode of decision that might be adopted of any material consequence; but in determining the present question, he hoped the yeas and nays would not be called. There is a of inferiority: a proposition, for example, shall be made, that has for its object the establishment of a superiority (howsoever necessary;) that principle is alarmed and excited to opposition; to discuss such a question as the present, we ought to be divested of every partiality and prejudice, that might bias our judgment in deciding an affair that will not bear the test of reason and experience. I conceive the precedence of the SeThe experiment has been made. If a gentle-nate has been clearly pointed out by the Conman keeps a servant and his horses, and means stitution. There are grades in society which are to reciprocate the civilities he receives, I again necessary to their very existence. This is a assert the compensation is inadequate. It is self-evident proposition; it is recognised by evtrue, we may live for two dollars a day; but ery civilized nation, and by the House in the rehow? There is a dignity attached to the situ- port before us. For what reason have we made ation of a Representative, with respect to his a difference between the President and Vice country; and the compensation might be 7 or 8 President? Is it not on account of his superior dollars per day, without granting the members station and his dignity? And between the Vice more than a bare compensation. From all these President and the Senate? This distinction is considerations, I am induced to hope that gen-likewise established by the constitution in the tlemen will indulge a little, and rather support difference of the terms for which the members an increase, than a diminution of pay. of the Senate and those of the House of RepreAs to the discrimination, it has been once de-sentatives are chosen. The time for which the cided against by a considerable majority; I have no doubt but it will now meet a similar fate; but be the decision of the House what it may, with respect to the quantuin, or manner of compensation, I shall never fear to deliver my sentiments. On the present occasion, I wish them known to my constituents, and I am much mistaken if they are not coincident with their own.

I apprehend, in establishing a compensation, we shall put it in the power of gentlemen, while here, to live as independent as they can at home. Perhaps I hazard a conjecture, when I say there is not a gentleman on this floor, I am certain there are not many, but have found, from experi-principle in mankind which revolts at the idea ence, that six dollars per day is adequate to that object; certainly it cannot be the wish of any man to make the public service unpleasant, by rendering the situation of the members of Congress less eligible than a solitary retirement from patriotic pursuits would be. Any man who lives decently, will find six dollars a day not more than sufficient to defray the expense of a casual residence in a splendid city.

Mr. SENEY-I am sorry, sir, that the question of discrimination has been brought before the House. Can any reason be assigned for making this distinction? Are the services of the Senate of more importance than those of the Representatives? I think not. Gentlemen have brought forward the constitution upon this occasion, but I conceive it to be opposite to the very principle they mean to advocate. This will destroy the independence of the several branches, which is to be strictly observed. If a discrimination should be established in favor of the Senate, will it not naturally tend to create a sense of inferiority in the minds of the Representatives? And the time may come when they may find it their interest to become subservient to the views of the Senate. I feel so sensibly, sir, the impropriety and unconstitutionality of this measure, that had I the most distant idea it would comport with the sentiments of a majority of the members of this House, I should call for the yeas and nays on

Senate is chosen, demonstrates the propriety of a difference being made in the pay they ought to receive; the duties of their office require they should renounce every other avocation; their attention will be wholly taken up in the discharge of public business; therefore they should have an adequate and an independent allowance. The generality of the members being so far advanced in years, will drop every idea of engaging any more in their several professions, after having once engaged in the service of their country. Their age, wisdom, and experience, all warrant this discrimination. He concluded by saying, that the real dignity of the House was, he thought, so far from being diminished by adopting the proposition, that he conceived it was essentially connected with it.

Mr. STONE thought the House ought not to assist in elevating one branch of the Government more above the other than the constitution had done. This had given influence to the Senate by a negative in the cases of treaties and appointments. It had given importance to the House, by yesting them with the sole power of originating money bills. But both these powers could be exercised without a discrimination being made in the pay of the members; therefore he inferred that it was not contemplated by the constitution to make any such distinction.

A discrimination may eventually operate to

JULY 17, 1789.]

Compensation to the President, &c.

[H. OF R.

the public injury; the House of Representatives If gentlemen are afraid of an aristocracy. may be desirous of terminating the session, but they ought to be careful not to make the com the Senate, finding the compensation they re- pensation too low, so as to exclude men of midceive quite agreeable, may be inclined to pro-dling fortunes; the men of rank and distintract it. He thought the true way of deciding guished opulence might serve without any peon this subject, was to make the same allowance cuniary compensation; but the Government to both, and let it be such as not to induce them would not be safe, if it was exclusively in such to protract the session on the one hand, or have hands. He wished to discriminate in favor of the a tendency to hurry over the business on the Senate, but he would rather increase their pay other. to eight dollars, than reduce that of the members of this House, while he considered it but a mod

The question on Mr. SEDGWICK's motion was taken, and lost by a considerable majority.

The House having now gone through the report, it was Ordered, that a bill or bills be brought in, pursuant thereto, and that Messrs. BURKE, STONE, and MOORE, be a committee to prepare and bring in the same; with instructions to insert a clause or clauses, making provision for a reasonable compensation to the Secretary of the Senate, and Clerk of the House of Representatives, respectively, for their services. After which the House adjourned.

FRIDAY, July 17.

Mr. JACKSON said, in reply to the inquiry of Mr SEDGWICK-"Why have we made a differ-erate compensation. ence between the President and the Vice President?" that the whole of the President's time would be taken up in the duties of his station; that the Vice President might retire to his farm whenever he thought proper. We refer, said he, to the wisdom of the Senate; but how is this superior wisdom to be discerned? If on this account a distinction is to be made, it necessarily follows, that a difference should be made between the members of this House, and those of the Senate. We cannot be too cautious how we establish an undue pre-eminence, and give an influence and importance to one branch of the Legislature over the other. All Governments incline to despotism, as naturally as rivers run into the sea. Despotism makes its way gradually, by slow and imperceptible steps; despotic power is never established all at once; we shall, ere we are aware, get beyond the gulf, and then we shall be astonished how we reached there. The services of the Senate are not more arduous than ours: their proper business is legislation, and I will never consent to any discrimination. If I imagined the question would be determined in favor of discrimination, I would call the yeas and nays, and should it be determined in favor of it, I will still call them on purpose that my constituents may see that I The Speaker laid before the House a letter have voted against a measure which I look up-from Ebenezer Hazard, Postmaster-General on as injurious to the Government. of the United States, submitting the propriety of some immediate provision, by law, for the arrangement of that Department, which was read, and ordered to be referred to Messrs. BOUDINOT, GOODHUE, and LEE; that they do examine the matter thereof, and report the same, with their opinion thereupon, to the House.

Mr. PAGE. If he thought the discrimination proposed would have the tendency which some gentlemen apprehended, he would be the last inan on the floor to support it. He would be as careful as any man how he extended the influence of any part of the Government, or gave it the least inclination towards aristocracy. But he apprehended gentlemen were deceived in their principle--he did not believe the doctrine that money confers importance, and he wished to evince to the world, that inoney, under this Government, would have no such effect. The Senate having more duties to perform, may require a larger pecuniary gratification; but this will not add to their importance. It will require something of this kind to stimulate gentlemen to undertake the service; for his part, he might consent to come here for two years, in order to assist in public business, but no induceinent, hardly, could engage him to undertake it for six years. On this consideration, he thought the Senate ought to have annual salaries, and to such an amount as would render their situation | independent and eligible.

A petition from Leonard Harbough was presented to the House, and read, praying that an exclusive privilege may be granted him for a term of years, to make, use, and vend three machines, which he has invented for threshing and reaping grain, and for deepening docks, and which are calculated to facilitate labor, and aid the two great objects of agriculture and commerce.

Ordered, That the said petition do lie on the table.

A bill for settling the accounts between the United States and individual States, was read the second time, and ordered to be committed to the Committee of the whole House on Tuesday next.

A bill to provide for the government of the Territory northwest of the river Ohio, was read the second time, and ordered to be committed to a Committee of the whole House on Monday next.

The House, according to the order of the day, resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House, on the bill for the establishment and support of light-houses, beacons, and buoys, and for authorizing the several States to provide and regulate pilots; and after some time spent therein,

The Chairman reported that the committee

H. OF R.]

Amendments to the Constitution.

[JULY 21, 1789.

to the constitution, and as there appeared, in some degree, a moment of leisure, he would move to go into a Committee of the whole on the subject, conformably to the order of the 8th of last month.

had, according to order, had the said bill under consideration, and gone through the same, and made several amendments thereto, which he delivered in at the Clerk's table, where the same was twice read and agreed to by the House. Mr. AMES hoped that the House would be Ordered, That the said bill, with the amend-induced, on mature reflection, to rescind their ments, be engrossed, and read the third time on vote of going into a committee on the business, Monday next.

MONDAY, July 20.

and refer it to a select committee. It would certainly tend to facilitate the business. If they had the subject at large before a Committee of the whole, he could not see where the

A message from the Senate informed the House, that they had passed the bill for estab-business was likely to end. The amendments lishing an Executive Department, to be denominated the Department of Foreign Affairs, with several amendments, to which they desired the concurrence of the House; that they have also passed a bill to establish the Judicial Courts of the United States, to which they desire the concurrence of the House.

proposed were so various, that their discussion must inevitably occupy many days, and that at a time when they can be ill spared; whereas a select committee could go through and cull out those of the most material kind, without interrupting the principal business of the House. He therefore moved, that the Committee of the whole be discharged, and the subject referred

Ordered, That a committee be appointed to bring in a bill or bills, providing for the estab-to a select committee. lishment of hospitals for sick and disabled seamen, and for the regulation of harbors; and that Mr. SMITH (of South Carolina,) Messrs. CLYMER and CARROLL, do prepare and bring in

the same.

The House resumed the consideration of the report on the petition of Andrew Ellicott, which lay on the table.

Whereupon,

Ordered, That the said report be re-committed to the same committee.

Mr. SEDGWICK opposed the motion, for the reasons given by his colleague, observing that the members from the several States proposing amendments would no doubt drag the House through the consideration of every one, whatever their fate might be after they were discussed; now gentlemen had only to reflect on this, and conceive the length of time the business would take up, if managed in this way.

Mr. WHITE thought no time would be saved by appointing a select committee. Every memThe House then proceeded to consider theber would like to be satisfied with the reasons amendments proposed by the Senate to the bill, entitled "An act for establishing an Executive Department, to be denominated the Department of Foreign Affairs," and the same being read, were agreed to.

upon which the amendments offered by the select committee are grounded, consequently the train of argument which gentlemen have in contemplation to avoid, must be brought forward.

He did not presume to say the constitution The bill sent from the Senate, "to establish was perfect, but it was such as had met with the Judicial Courts of the United States," was the approbation of wise and good men in the read the second time, and ordered to be com-different States. Some of the proposed amendmitted to a Committee of the whole House on Monday next.

The House resolved itself into a Committee of the whole House, on the bill to provide for the government of the Territory northwest of the river Ohio, Mr. BOUDINOT in the chair;

ments were also of high value; but he did not expect they would be supported by two-thirds of both Houses, without undergoing a thorough investigation. He did not like to refer any business to a select committee, until the sense of the House had been expressed upon it, because And after some time being spent in consider- it rather tended to retard than despatch it; witing the same, the committee rose and reportedness the collection bill, which had cost them that they had, according to order, had the said much time, but after all had to be deserted. bill under consideration, and gone through the Mr. SHERMAN.-The provision for amendments made in the fifth article of the constituOrdered, That the said bill, with the amend-tion, was intended to facilitate the adoption of ments, be engrossed, and read the third time to- those which experience should point out to be

same.

necessary. This constitution has been adopted by eleven States, a majority of those eleven have received it without expressing a wish for govern-fourths of the eleven States will agree to amendamendments; now, is it probable that threements offered on mere speculative points, when the constitution has had no kind of trial whatever? It is hardly to be expected that they will. Consequently we shall lose our labor, and had better decline having any thing further to do with it for the present.

AMENDMENTS TO THE CONSTITUTION.

Mr. MADISON begged the House to indulge him in the further consideration of amendments