From that, however, he did not mean to contend that it was better to build our hopes on the ftrength of our alliances than on the strength of our navy. He was aware of the difficulty which attended negociations of that nature; but he afferted, that minifters were culpable in turning away with impatience from any object which they might have attained, had they purfued it with perfevering firmness. Mr. Dundas remarked, that there was fcarcely a single ar- Mr. Dungument relative to the fituation in which this country had das. ftood for many years back with refpect to the other powers, that he was not ready to adopt; but he muft call upon the right honourable gentleman for an explanation in what manner thofe arguments could be brought to bear upon the prefent treaty. He could not fee what relation they had to it, being fully fatisfied that there was nothing in the treaty, which in the fmalleft degree tended to throw a difficulty either in the way of this country's taking ány political part against France which fhe thought proper, or of entering into an alliance with any other power. What was the treaty but a measure calculated to enable her to circulate the manufactures of her own artizans in ten times a greater degree than ever fhe could do heretofore, by opening to her one of the most extenfive markets in the world; and in doing fo, where was the danger? Her own market fhe was sure of, and whatever might be faid of the probability of its being wrefted out of her hands by France having the power of importing her manufactures, the high protecting duties rendered fuch a matter impracticable. Mr. Dundas declared, that the proportion in which the commerce of the country would be increased was beyond all conception; thus, inftead of the British capital being, as the honourable member had stated on Monday, conveyed to France, and there lodged, to the great inconvenience of Great Britain in cafe of a fudden war, it would be turned much oftener than before, and the profits would be multiplied and increafed in proportion. The honourable gentleman who had started the difficulty which he had just mentioned, had in the courfe of his fpeech objected two different ways, and he wifhed him therefore to reconcile the contradiction. He had talked of the British capital being conveyed into French hands in one part of his fpeech, and of the British glafs manufactory and cotton manufactory being nearly ruined in confequence of the duties upon the importation of thofe articles from France being too low to protect our manufactories. Mr. Dundas contended, that it was wife in this country during a time of peace to take advantage of the circumftance, and by extending our commerce to fill the coffers of the State. He commended the good fenfe of an argument on Monday night, when a right ho nourable nourable gentleman (Mr. Grenville) had recommended a alliance with her own manufacturers as the best allián which Great Britain could form, and that moft likely to en ble her to be ready for war, whenever war fhould be inev table. He fhould not be afraid of faying to a French min fter, "If you want to make war with this country, beg "when you please and where you pleafe; if in the Eaft, yo "will find an army ready and a full treafury; the fame "the Weft, and the fame in Europe." In fact, the poin Great Britain fhould now aim at, was to reduce her debt an fill her coffers; fhe would then be able to fubfidize allies an fuftain the charge of every needful preparation. Mr. Powys. Mr. Powys rofe to explain the points of his former fpeec which had been animadverted upon by Mr. Dundas. He faid he had rifen at fo late an hour on Monday, that he ha barely stated the outlines of the matters which ftruck hin upon the treaty. Mr. Powys then recapitulated what he ha faid relative to the injury which he feared the glafs and cot ton manufactories would fuftain, and his doubt whether great part of the British capital would not be transferred ove to France, and upon a fudden emergency be felt as a mate rial inconvenience by this country. In answer to Mr. Wil berforce's addrefs to him as a country gentleman, Mr. Powy faid, the country gentleman who fhould govern his publi conduct by mere confiderations of private intereft, was a mi ferable animal indeed: no impreffion arifing from the cir cumftance of the land tax being 4s. in the pound, or ever more, fhould induce him to vote, upon a matter of great public importance, differently from what he confcientiously believed would be moft for the good of the country; it was upon that impulfe that he had voted against the refolution of Monday, and the fame motive would direct his vote that night. Mr. Drake Mr. Drake confeffed, that he felt himself difpofed on all occafions to give his fupport to the executive government, when he fuppofed that their intentions were good. On the prefent occafion he was convinced that they acted from the pureft patriotifm; and that if in the courfe of the inveftigation of the bufinefs they fhould find it against the interefts of their country to enter into a commercial alliance with France, they would recede from the propofition. However he might vote on the occafion, he begged to be understood, that he did not pledge himself to give his concurrence to the final queftion. The treaty of Utrecht, he obferved, had undergone the fame kind of difcuffion with the prefent, and it was at last thrown out on the motion for the ingroffment of the bill. He concluded with exclaiming, "Bleffed are the peacc-makers and the peace-prefervers." Mr. Mr. Alderman Watfon rofe to fay a few words upon the Mr. Ald. commercial treaty, and principally to call the attention of Watson. the Committee to the ftate of our trade. In the year 1677 we had but one veffel with lingering fails, a fingle folitary bottom, that went to the Baltic; in 1786 we had feveral hundred fail, with a vast number to Greenland; Mr. Watson commented on this difference, and argued that it proved in how flourishing a ftate the trade of this country now was, and that it at the fame time fhewed, how cautious we should be in taking any step which might affect it. The alderman fuggefted that France and America were in connection, and that the latter fent her produce to France and was supported from France; France therefore, by the commercial treaty with Great Britain, might enable herself to fulfill all her American commiffions at the expence of British credit. He declared, that this was a ferious confideration, and although he generally voted with the right honourable gentleman at the head of the treafury, the right honourable gentleman muft excufe him, if on a bufinefs of fo much importance he thought the matter merited more than common attention, and when voted as upon deliberation appeared to be moft beneficial to the country. Mr. Drake spoke in explanation, and declared that he Mr. Drake. fhould vote pro bono publico. Mr. Huffey profeffed to have been a good deal impreffed Mr.Hulley. with the fact ftated by Mr. Alderman Watfon relative to the violent contraft between the fituation of our trade to the Baltick and the North feas in 1677 and 1786. He recommended the confideration of that fact, and of the rest of the worthy alderman's fpeech, to the ferious attention of the Chancellor of the Exchequer. Mr. Huffey declared, that he had heard a right honourable gentleman (Mr. Flood) with great pleasure, but he believed that his ftatement of the exceeding of the exports over our imports was not put quite fo ftrongly for the right honourable gentleman's argument as it ought to have been; for instead of two out of thirty-two it was fcarcely two out of forty-five. Mr. Huffey faid, that he fhould vote against the treaty, because he feared that it would produce evil and not advantage to the country. Mr. Fox obferved, that the circumftance which was very Mr. Fox. natural to happen, had arifen from the right honourable gentleman's fo properly declining to make any speech; and the debate had proceeded folely on the general merits of the treaty, without a fingle word's having been faid to the particular question before the Committee. He would therefore bring forward an amendment which would go to the question immediately, and this was, to add, as part of the refolution, "that it was the opinion of the Committee that the duties " on Mr. Chan "on the importation of Portugal wines fhould at the fame "time be lowered one third." This, Mr. Fox obferved, would be an effectual means of preferving the Methuen treaty in full force, fo far as it related to our part of the obligation, and would enable government more advantageously to nego tiate the pending treaty with Portugal. Mr. Fox declared the propofition was fo felf-evident, that he faw not any ground on which it was objectionable; but he was prepared to debate it either then, or, as it was fo late an hour, the next day, if the right honourable gentleman and the Committee thought proper. He added, that as the Committee had not regularly before them any information that a treaty was pending, or what ftate it was in, it the more became them to convince Portugal, and all Europe, that their wish was to continue the Methuen treaty. Mr. Chancellor Pitt expreffed his doubts, whether in point cellor Fitt. of, order, when they were confidering of a commercial treaty with France, and proceeding to vote refolutions, fignifying their intention to fulfill the conditions of the treaty and carry them into execution, they could take cognizance of a refolution refpecting the wines of Portugal; but, putting the point of order out of the queftion, he did not think that a proper moment to take up the confideration of the Portugal wines. He had before told the Houfe that a negociation for the redress of grievances was pending with Portugal, and that negociation was, he hoped, in a fair way to be foon brought to a conclufion; at leaft it wore a favourable aspec, and no denial to treat had been given. As foon as news arrived of its being concluded, he fhould propofe the neceffary refolution to the Houfe; but fuppofing that the negociation. was not brought to an end before the bill paffed, that it would be neceffary to carry the commercial treaty with France into execution, á circumftance by no means impoffible. In that cafe he fhould think it his duty to propofe to lower the duties on Portugal wines for fuch a period, as might reafonably be thought fufficient for the negociation with the court of Lisbon to be brought to a termination in; but if, what he trufted and hoped would not happen, viz. that the court of Lisbon would not redrefs the grievances complained of, and refused to continue to preferve the fpirit of the Methuen treaty, in that cafe he fhould propofe to Parliament to think, of putting the wines of Fortugal upon equal duties with thofe to be paid on the importation of French wines. Having declared this, the Chancellor of the Exchequer faid, he would leave it to the breafts of the Committee to decide whether the amendment fhould be debated or not. Mr. Fox. Mr. Fox denied that the objection in point of order could hold out a moment. The treaty exprefsly mentioned the re ferve in favour of Portugal wines, and confequently nothing could be more ftrictly regular than to notice them at the fame time that the refolution relative to the wines of France was voted. Mr. Fox took notice of the candid explanation which the right honourable gentleman had given of his intentions, but nevertheless thought it ought to be fully dif cuffed, and as it was fo late an hour, he would propose that the debate be adjourned. Mr. Grenville faid, that the right honourable gentleman Mr. Gren had difcuffed his motion in what he had remarked concern- ville. ing it; unneceffary, therefore, was it, after the explanation which his right honourable friend had given, to proceed any farther upon it for the prefent. Mr. Fox ridiculed this idea and obferved, that he had only Mr. Fox. given his reasons that an adjournment was neceffary, as the amendment which he had to propofe was likely to occafion fome debate. He adverted to the motion which had been carried for an adjournment after the fpeech of his honourable friend (Mr. Sheridan). It was now a later hour, and if the queftion of adjournment fhould be oppofed, he should confider it as a violation of decorum, and a mark of disrespect to his fide of the House. Mr. Sheridan obferved, that the right honourable gentle- Mr. Sheman's (Mr. Grenville) argument went farther than the mere ridan. queftion of adjournment; he even faid, "I am not only against an adjournment, but I am alfo against any farther "debate on the fubject of the queftion." The amendment of his right honourable friend was undoubtedly fuch as would occafion a confiderable difagreement of opinion, he would therefore move for an adjournment, as he conceived it improbable the debate should be finished that night. The Committee divided on the queftion of adjournment, Mr. Chancellor Pitt's original refolution was then put and carried. The House adjourned. Friday, 16th February. The honourable Thomas Pelham moved, that the order of Mr. Pelthe day for the Houfe to refolve itself into a Committee of ham. the whole House to confider farther of the several articles of charge of high crimes and mifdemeanors against Warring Haftings, Efq. late governor general of Bengal, be now read: and the faid order being read accordingly, Mr. Pelham moved to discharge the order, which being agreed to, he next moved, that the Houfe fhould refolve itself into a Commit tee for the faid purpose on the enfuing Thurfday. VOL. XXI. Hh Mr. |