possible, relative to the present state of our trade with Portugal, and with that view he had understood the right honourable gentleman to have wished the motion not to be pressed. His objection to the motion, Mr. Fox faid, was, that it really could not produce the information wished for. Custom-house returns, to the orders of that House, to fay the truth, produced, for the most part, a fort of information scarcely good for any thing; but even were it likely for those returns, in the prefent cafe, to be made up with unusual exactness, it was impoffible that the information they afforded, could throw any material light upon the extent of the trade of this country with Portugal, because the returns of the Custom-house of the port of London could not, in his mind, comprehend one half, nor one third, nor scarcely a fourth of the whole of the trade between Great Britain and Portugal. With regard to what the right honourable gentleman had faid in the latter part of his fpeech, as to its being proper for that House, in cafe of the failure of the arrival of the information expected by His Majesty's Minifters from Portugal, to proceed to a resolution of approbation of the commercial treaty with France, there he must differ with the honourable gentleman altogether. He meant not at that time to forestall a future debate, or to enter prematurely into the difcuffion of subjects which had better be referved for a fitter time; but he could not too eagerly declare, that before he could make up his mind upon the French treaty, which in effect implied, or rather amounted to a breach of the treaty with Portugal, commonly called the Methuen treaty, he must know how the trade between this kingdom and Portugal stood. That a treaty was pending with Portugal was well known, and report faid, that it was near being brought to a conclufion, but terminated it must be one way or another, and that House ought to know that it was fo, before they decided upon the treaty with France. Would any man pretend that the two confiderations were not complicated and involved in each other, and that the two treaties which subsist between this country and France, and that between this country and Portugal, did not bear a relation to each other? Would not the right honourable gentleman himself feel ashamed, and think it a reproach were it to be imputed to him, that, as one of His Majesty's Minifters, he had entered into, and concluded a commercial treaty with France, without attention to our trade with Portugal? Far be it from him to harbour for a moment, even a thought so injurious to the right honourable gentleman's ability and fenfe of the duties of his station. That being the cafe then, and it being undeniable that the treaty with France and the treaty with Portugal bore

bore a relation to each other, it was abfurd for any man to contend that the House could decide upon the one without knowing all the bearings and tendencies of the other.

Mr. Chancellor Pitt answered, that although not in the Mr. Chan. leaft more inclined than the right honourable gentleman, to Pitt. make the commercial treaty a point of immediate difcuffion, yet if there were any leading parts as to the propriety of the day on which they ought to enter into the investigation of it, the nature and extent of the information they ought to have before them, previous to their difcuffion of it, or any particulars likely to affect the turn of the debate, he should think it for the general accommodation of the House to have those points fettled and decided on a day prior to the day of the main debate; and therefore if any gentleman had any doubt upon his mind of the defcription to which he had alluded he should be glad to know it, that when he fubmitted to the House the day on which he should wish the treaty to be taken into confideration, a day might at the fame time be fixed for the difcuffion and decifion of fuch doubts. As in a commercial treaty there were neceffarily various articles of detail, which required to be ultimately settled by a convention negociated fubfequent to the treaty, such a convention had been concluded; but as the ratifications of it had been but lately exchanged, or rather the ratifications fo exchanged had not arrived, he waited merely for their arrival, before he proposed a day for taking the treaty into confideration. As foon as the ratified convention came, he expected to receive His Majesty's commands to lay a copy of it before the House, and then he would submit the nomination of a day for the discussion of the treaty to the House, at which time also the day for deciding any doubtful point, might be fixed. The right honourable gentleman (Mr. Fox) had laid down one position with much greater appearance of heat and paffion than had been necessary, as it was a position, that it would be difficult to find a man on either fide of the House willing to deny; no less a position than that it was the duty of His Majesty's government, when they negociated a treaty of Commerce with France, not to have been inattentive to the confideration of the state of our exifting treaty and future trade with Portugal. This was not only true in itself, but it was actually unnecessary for him to say any thing to prove that His Majesty's Minifters had been duly attentive to the treaty fubfifting with Portugal, and the future trade with that kingdom, when they negociated the commercial treaty with France, because that very treaty upon the face of it bore incontrovertible evidence of their having done so, as it contained an express referve in favour of Portugal, enabling VOL. XXI.

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Mr. Fox.

this country, whenever Portugal shewed herself by her
conduct entitled to a continuance of the advantages the en-
joyed at our hands by virtue of the Methuen treaty, to fe-
cure a continuance of the advantages to that kingdom.
The right honourable gentleman had been a little incorrect
in his expreffion, when he said that a refolution of the
House to carry the commercial treaty with France into ex-
ecution, would be a breach of the Methuen treaty with
Portugal. A breach of that treaty, the carrying the com-
mercial treaty with France into execution, would not amount
to, but it would rather put an end to the Methuen treaty;
because by that treaty, Portugal stipulated to grant certain
advantages to this country fo long as this country gave her
wines a preference by admitting them under duties specifi-
cally lower than those paid by the wines of other countries.
Though it were to be wished that Mr. Fawkener might
return from Portugal, and bring with him the expected
agreement of that Court to the treaty in negociation, or an
account that the negociation was terminated one way or
another, prior to the day of discussion of the French treaty,
yet the House might fairly come to a refolution of approba-
tion of the treaty with France, as that treaty contained a
clause of referve, 'enabling Great Britain to continue to
Portugal the advantages she derived from the Methuen treaty
at any fubfequent period whatsoever.

Mr. Fox obferved, that when he rose to answer the right
honourable gentleman, he did not mean to contend against
the position, that a resolution to approve and carry into
execution the commercial treaty with France, would rather
be a putting an end to the Methuen treaty than a breach of
it, but he denied that the two treaties were feparate confi-
derations. He urged, that even under that view of the
cafe, and supposing either that Mr. Fawkener had not re-
turned, or that the treaty negociating with Portugal was
terminated one way or the other, then the Minifter ought to
make known to that House what his future intentions were
with refpect to Portugal, before he called upon the House
to give their approbation of the treaty with France. He
observed, that the moment the commercial treaty had re-
ceived their fanction, that House was bound in honour and
fincerity to proceed to carry it into execution, and as it was
an undoubted fact, that an abundant number of speculations
were depending and waiting for the execution of the treaty,
if the House came to a resolution of approbation, it was
their indispensable duty to enact laws for carrying it into
execution as foon as possible after the refolution was passed,
in order that the various speculations might be realized, and
the country fet at rest respecting it. He held it to be fo ab-
folutely

solutely necessary that the House should have before them information of the present state of the trade between this country and Portugal, and of the state in which it would be put after the French treaty was carried into effect, previous to the difcuffion of that treaty, that he should think it to be his duty to take the fenfe of the House on that point previous to the investigation of the general and main question on the treaty itself.

Mr. Chancellor Pitt expressed his astonishment, that the Mr. Chan. right honourable gentleman should with fuch uncommon Pitt. ardor urge the neceffity of speedily carrying the treaty into execution, in order to realize the speculations grounded upon it, and yet wish to delay the coming to a refolution refpecting it, which was an unavoidable preliminary proceeding. After a refolution of approbation (if fuch should pafs) the forms of the House rendered it impoffible to pafs any bills in confequence into laws, without their being obliged to go through various itages, which would indifpenfably take up several days, and occafion much delay. Though Mr. Fawkener might not therefore return or fend any intelligence by the time that the refolution might pafs, yet, before the bill relative to wines, which might be grounded upon it, should pass the Committee, information might arrive, and then it would be time enough to make the provifion in favour of Portugal, should Portugal think proper to entitle herself to favour. But whether any information arrived from Portugal or not, still he held the part of the treaty, refpecting French wines, to be a wife meafure. He was prepared to declare in either event, that whether the advantages of the Methuen Treaty were continued to Portugal or not, it was wife to agree with France as the commercial treaty stipulated.

Mr. Burke, to his encomiums on the candid confiftency Mr. Burke. of the Minifter, added, that he had acted throughout with perfect confittency, but declared, that where a system was bad, in that cafe confiftency was bad alfo. What ftruck him as extraordinaty was, that the first time any complaints of the non-compliance of Portugal with the terms of the Methuen treaty were breathed in that House was, when a commercial treaty had been concluded with France. Then and then only did fuch a matter burst upon them. He was aware that the merchants had complained fo long ago as the year 1758, but as a member of Parliament he had heard of no complaint till he had heard of the commercial treaty with France. This was a new era, and before the kingdom of Portugal, which the Methuen treaty tied and bound, as it were, to this country, were let loofe, and all our connections with that kingdom, and the benefits which re

E2

Mr. W.

sulted in consequence, for fo many years, were abandoned by Great Britain, it behoved that House to act cautioufly, to have complete information before them, and to know the full extent of the facrifice that the right honourable gentleman wished them to make to France, as the price of the advantages expected to refult from the carrying the commercial treaty into complete execution.

Mr. W. Grenville observed, that notwithstanding the inGrenville. direct manner in which the right honourable gentleman had ventured to accuse the Minifter of inconfiftency, he was driven, in the fupport of his charge, to the feeble and unbecoming shifts of bare-faced and palpable mifrepresentations of the whole speech. For instance, he had endeavoured to give a turn to his right honourable friend's argument, as if he had ftated that he looked upon the French treaty as a facrifice of the present subsisting treaties with Portugal, and vindicated it upon that ground-whereas, in fast, no fuch sentiment had dropped from him. He had only obferved, that the French treaty would in no degree preclude Great Britain from adhering to the fpirit of the Methuen treaty, should the Court of Portugal shew a difposition to entitle herself to a continuation of the benefits refulting from that treaty, but also, that whether Portugal should or should not come to a proper fettlement with this country on the matters at present in difpute between them; in either cafe the French treaty was a most wife and beneficial object. Extraordinary, indeed, was the affertion of the right honourable gentleman, (Mr. Burke), that he never had, until that day, been apprised of any defection on the part of Portugal, from the provifions and spirit of the Methuen treaty. It was impoffible for any gentleman, who had paid fo much attention to the commercial concerns of this country, to be ignorant of a circumftance so glaring, and so univerfally known, as that repeated and uniform complaints had been made of the ineffectual manner in which that treaty had been carried into execution on the part of Portugal, fo far back as the year 1767, from which period that country had been gradually departing from it more and But if, indeed, the right honourable gentleman was so unaccountably ignorant of so plain a fact, there was a right honourable gentleman, at no confiderable distance from him, who, at least in the knowledge of commercial concerns, could look down upon him with all the confciousness of high pre-eminence.

more.

Mr. Fox.

Mr. Fox, now rifing, obferved, that he thought himself juftified in declaring that the right honourable gentleman had actually proceeded to those lengths in mifrepresentation,

which he laboured (but laboured ineffectually) to impute to

his