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We thank you very much, gentlemen. The argument between the Senator from Nebraska and myself is over for the present.

Senator HRUSKA. That is further encroachment on the time of the executive session, I take it, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. CARTWRIGHT. I take it, Mr. Chairman, we are excused for the moment?

Senator O’MAHONEY. You are excused for the afternoon.

Mr. Mackay, I am calling you to the stand because I understand that you are the publisher of a newspaper for which Mr. Worthy, one of the witnesses here last week, has worked?

STATEMENT OF CLIFF W. MACKAY, EDITOR, BALTIMORE

AFRO-AMERICAN

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Mr. MACKAY. I am the editor.

Senator O'MAHONEY. You heard the testimony this morning with respect to the exercise of pressure by the State Department, by Mr. Murphy in the State Department, to be specific, to prevent the use of writings of Mr. Worthy in the Baltimore paper by the name of the Baltimore Afro-American, did you not? Did you hear that testimony?

Mr. MACKAY. Yes.
Senator O’MAHONEY. Do you know whether or not that is true?

Mr. MACKAY. Well, not in the nature of preventing the publication of the material.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Was any pressure used!
Mr. MACKAY. Well, we were asked to come to the State Depart-

, ment for a conference.

Senator O’MAHONEY. Who was asked ?

Mr. MACKAY. The publisher was asked, and he delegated me to go since I was the one who was responsible more or less for the assignment.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Why were you asked to go?

Mr. MACKAY. I didn't know until after I reached the State Department. We had a conference with Mr. Walter Robertson, I think his name was.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Yes.

Mr. MACKAY. We were told he was the Under Secretary in Charge of Far Eastern Affairs.

Senator O'MAHONEY. Yes.

Mr. Mackay. And the gist of the conference was that I was supposed to recall Mr. Worthy from China; that that was

Senator O'MAHONEY. Were you told to recall him?
Mr. MACKAY. It was suggested that I should.
Senator O'MAHONEY. In what manner was that suggestion made?

Mr. MACKAY. Well, the Department said that several months ago, an invitation had gone out to a group of 18 newspapermen to go to China, and these men had complied with the State Department request that they not go to China; and the A. P. Managing Editors Association, I was told, had agreed to this request of the State Department.

Senator O’MAHONEY. What did you say?

Mr. Mackay. I told them then that I didn't feel that I could in good conscience ask Mr. Worthy to return to this country.

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Senator OʻMAHONEY. Were you specifically requested to have the publisher ask him to return?

Mr. MACKAY. Yes.
Senator O’MAHONEY. And you said, "No."
Mr. MACKAY. Yes, sir.

Senator O’MAHONEY. Was that the decision of yourself—your decision-or the decision of the publisher?

Mr. Mackay. Well, it was my decision, because the matter had been turned over to me to deal with as I saw fit.

Senator OʻMAHONEY. Did you call him back?
Mr. MACKAY. No, sir.
Senator O’MAHONEY. Did the publisher call him back?
Mr. MACKAY. No, sir.
Senator O’MAHONEY. Did he send stories to the paper ?
Mr. MACKAY. Yes, sir.
Senator O’MAHONEY. Were those stories printed?
Mr. MACKAY. Yes, sir.
Senator O’MAHONEY. Were you personally acquainted with Mr.
Worthy!

Mr. MACKAY. Yes, sir.
Senator O’MAHONEY. How long have you known him?
Mr. MACKAY. He has been doing work for us for about 5 years.

Senator O’MAHONEY. Are you acquainted with his reputation as a loyal American ? Mr. MACKAY. Yes, sir.

Senator OʻMAHONEY. Are you acquainted with his reputation as a law-abiding citizen?

Mr. MACKAY. Yes, sir.

Senator O’MAHONEY. What is that reputation, first, with respect to his patriotism, and with respect to his abiding by the law?

Mr. MACKAY. Good.
Senator O'MAHONEY. Good.
Are you familiar with any conscientious objection on his part ?
Mr. MACKAY. No, sir. I am not too clear on that point.

Mr. SLAYMAN. Mr. Chairman, we heard some hearsay evidence this morning. I would like to put in some hearsay evidence, with your permission, handed to me by a wire service.

Senator O’MAHONEY. A wire service? Mr. SLAYMAN. Representative. [Laughter.] Senator O'MAHONEY. This looks like a ticker tape report. Is it? Mr. SLAYMAN. It looks that way to me, too. Senator O'MAHONEY. By whom was it handed to you? Mr. SLAYMAN. By an otherwise unidentified wire service representative.

Senator HRUSKA. Isn't the chairman entitled to be confronted by his informants! (Laughter.]

Senator O’MAHONEY. I wondered whether if I waited long enough that you would not come up with that. [Laughter.] Mr. SLAYMAN. Shall we call the man himself to read it? Senator O’MAHONEY. Yes, certainly. Off the record. (Discussion off the record.)

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Mr. HURLEIGH. Yesterday afternoon, the executive committee of the Radio & Television Correspondents Association, of which I am president and chairman of the executive committee, held a meeting in connection with an invitation from this committee for a representative of our association to appear.

The other members of that committee present were Edward P. Morgan of the American Broadcasting Co., Julian Goodman, of the National Broadcasting Co.; Lewis W. Shollenberger, of the Columbia Broadcasting System; Ann Corrick, of Corrick Productions; and Leslie Higbie, of Les Higbie Associates; absent was our member ex officio, Joseph McCaffrey, and Bryce Burke of United Press Movietone News.

At that time I was directed to appear before your committee, Senator, and present a telegram that we sent to Secretary of State John Foster Dulles on March 7, which in effect presents our position as an association. That was:

Inasmuch as the President of the United States today indicated that the question of American news correspondents entering Communist China was under active consideration, the Radio & Television Correspondents Association urgently requests that the State Department withdraw its objections to the travel of accredited American news correspondents in Communist China.

That, Mr. Chairman, in effect establishes our position as an association. We would like to see the State Department change its position.

At the present time we have not recommended, nor have we had any discussion regarding the travel of an accredited correspondent without such permission.

Senator O’MAHONEY. Any questions?

Senator Hruska. I take it, Mr. Hurleigh, in fact I am assuming, and I am sure it is with entire justification, that the interest of your association here is toward an effective press. That would be true, would it not?

Mr. HURLEIGH. That is right, Senator.

Senator Hruska. Effective and fully operative press, with one of its principal objectives being the extension of good government, and all that sort of thing.

Mr. HURLEIGH. Yes, sir.
Senator HRUSKA. Which inheres in good government, and so on.

Would the association or would you be willing to go along with the thought that there are some instances in which the State Department would be warranted in withholding permission for American citizens, whether they are newsmen or not, to go into certain countries?

Mr. HURLEIGH. Well, Senator Hruska, I think I should answer that by referring to a statement made by Mr. Cartwright of the Department of State a short while ago, when he read portions of a statement made by the Deputy Under Secretary, Mr. Murphy, before the Senate Foreign Relations Committee on April 2. He said he wanted to quote certain paragraphs which he felt would deal directly with the immediate interests of this particular subcommittee.

I have a copy of that which was given to the press, in which it says:

Generally speaking, the United States will not validate passports for travel to countries with which we do not have diplomatic relations. Americans traveling to such countries cannot be extended the usual protection offered American citizens and property abroad by our embassies and consulates abroad. At the present time the following inscription is printed in every United States passportwhich I heard discussed a short while ago, and that part is:

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This passport is not valid for travel to the following areas under control of authorities with which the United Statesand so forth.

In addition to not validating passports for countries with which we have no diplomatic relations, the Secretary of State may from time to time decide that the safety of American citizens cannot be fully protected in certain countries.

Then this addition :

Groups often excepted in such cases are Red Cross and relief workers, priests and missionaries, and the press.

I feel if this is true of Albania, Bulgaria, and perhaps Vietnam and Korea, it might also be true of Communist China; and that is the position that the association has taken.

That is a long way of answering your question, Senator Hruska, but I mean to give the impression that the association per se feels this way.

Senator HRUSKA. As to Red China, in connection with conditions as they exist today? That is your thinking with reference to Red China as conditions exist today; is that what you are trying to say?

Mr. HURLEIGH. At the present time, we feel that the State Department could certainly withdraw its present objections to the travel in Communist China.

Senator HRUSKA. Would there be any danger, in your thinking, in putting this in the form of a statute which Congress would pass, and which

the President would sign, that reporters would be able to go into Red China without hindrance, having in mind that conditions change from time to time, and that it takes a little while to change statutes! Having that in mind, do you see any objection to putting that sort of policy to which you refer now, and for which you contend, into the form of a statute?

Mr. HURLEIGH. No, I do not, sir.
Senator HRUSKA. You do not.

You feel it would be perfectly competent for the Congress to put it in the form of a statute specifically saying it is all right for any newspaperman to go into Red China without restriction on the part of the Department of State?

Mr. HURLEIGH. I do, sir.

Senator HRUSKA. And if conditions would change as of August 2, and the State Department would be unable to restrict the passage of newsmen into that country, and the well-being of the country would be considered by the President and by the Secretary of State as including such restrictions to newsmen and anybody else, you feel that that would be perfectly legitimate and that the national well-being would not suffer as a result?

Mr. HURLEIGH. You are asking, Senator Hruska, a question which I do not feel I can answer in my capacity as president of the Radio and Television Correspondents Association. This particular wire, and my being here, was by unanimous decision of the individuals present at the meeting of yesterday afternoon.

If you are talking about what we as an association think should be done, we speak in the overall for the various networks and our independents. But, I also happen to be the director of news and special events for the Mutual Broadcasting System-if you should like me to walk out, take my association hat off, and come back as a network news director, I might talk differently to you, sir. But I feel at this time I must represent my association.

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You see, on those things we are guided by considerations which go above any certain profession or any vocation. They deal with the Nation as a whole.

So I could arrive—and I am sure you would not want to limit it in any way--we could on that basis, of course, have a lot of arguments advanced which would operate to deny the position which you take.

Mr. HURLEIGH. I agree with you, Senator.
Senator O’MAHONEY. Will the Senator yield to me?
Senator HRUSKA. Surely.

Senator O’MAHONEY. Is not the Senator's argument based upon an assumption, an assumption that the issuance of passports to the press might involve the United States in difficulty ?

Senator HRUSKA. Yes; that is the assumption which I gave.

Senator O'MAHONEY. All right. Then is it not a fact that the Senator's questions are also based upon the evidence laid before us, first by Mr. Cartwright, and now repeatedly by Mr. Hurleigh, that the State Department itself reserves to itself the right to make exceptions ?

Senator HRUSKA. That is right. Senator O’MAHONEY. It says: We will allow certain people to go in, including the press, in this particular instance, but the press may not go into Red China.

Senator HRUSKA. But those exceptions

Senator OʻMAHONEY. Is that not discretionary government, and not government by law ?

Senator HRUSKA. No-well, let me take that one by one.

In the first place, the exceptions in the case of the Red Cross, relief workers, priests, missionaries, and the press are not always granted. They are not invariably granted. They are often excepted, and that is the language of the testimony to which you referred, which you read,“Groups often excepted,” not "always" excepted.

Senator OʻMAHONEY. Is that not proof that it is discretionary?

Senator HRUSKA. Yes. That is its saving grace, and that is the characteristic I think we should make an effort to preserve. Because as soon as it is frozen into a statute where it becomes rigid and where no one can change it except the makers of that statute, and if the makers of that statute, to wit, the Congress of the United States, is not in session and will not be in session for months, then we may have a situation which will be a source of great danger to our country, and I do not think it should be on that basis.

I think it should remain right where it is, on a discretionary basis.

Senator O'MAHONEY. May I say to the Senator that the difference between him and me is simply this: I do not believe in government by discretion by men. I believe in government by law.

Senator Hruska. I subscribe to that same belief as fully as the Senator from Wyoming.

Senator O'MAHONEY. But the Senator does—

Senator HRUSKA. I will say this: For many years the Senator from Wyoming has been in this body, and he has suffered to exist in the Department of State this very statute which creates and confers that authority upon the President and the Secretary of State whereby they do exercise this discretion of the type which we have been discussing.

Senator OʻMAHONEY. I am only one poor, weak Member of the

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