give that attention to train orders that it is necessary that he should. He has more than he can do in making a safe run with his train and making his meets and stops, without paying attention to anything else; and, under the present system, it seems there is a division of responsibility which is not conducive to best results; and there should be a man on each train who is absolutely responsible for the management of the train; he should be held to strict accountability for the safety of that train.-Pacific Coast Railway Club.

Rate-Making and its Causes.

C. L. WELLINGTON (Traffic Manager of the Colorado and Southern Railway): Rate-making is supposed, by many outside of railroad circles, to be conducted on some exact scale, but, with the exception of the local distance tariffs, which are applied on less than 1 per cent. of a road's business, there are no rates applied by any precise rule.

It is true that rates can be more intelligently adjusted by one who has the benefit of long experience, but, aside from experience, good judgment and common sense are essential.

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It is in the competitive field that ratemaking becomes a problem. This statement, which all traffic men know to be true, shows at once that there is a fallacy in thinking rate-making a science.

This competition is not altogether between transportation lines. Commodities and markets are each great factors in the competitive field, and many changes in rates, which on the surface seem to be the result of keen competition between transportation lines, are primarily caused by trade conditions. I believe that in time these two elements will be conceded to have greater influence in establishment of rates than rivalry or competition of transportation lines. When this is fully acknowledged many of the troubles now harassing the railway interests with respect to interstate commerce will be removed.

The two kinds of competition furnish a sure leveling of rates which all railways have experienced. The constantly decreasing rate per ton miles necessitates a continual increase of tonnage and an adoption of economies which will produce net revenue to pay interest on the investment and proper dividends on capital.

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Traffic officials have, however, in the last few years, made great advances to

ward a science of rate-making, because conditions and experience have shown clearly the necessity of carefully considering the result, and statistics of traffic movement now prepared and the statements of earnings given are studiously scrutinized, to learn where economies can be practiced and how traffic can be more satisfactorily handled with a view to more net revenue. Results are now much more carefully looked for, and the traffic official who does not secure good results is not considered with favor.

In former years, the lack of such information which is now so easily procured, as to facilities of operation, tonnage statistics, density of tonnage by districts, relative earnings on commodities, and on traffic as a whole, caused the traffic men to work without any rule for making rates, but the cry was always "more tonnage," and little thought was given to net

revenue.

With the pronounced increase in cost of everything a railway has to buy, including labor, rails, power equipment, in fact, everything that enters into railway expense, how necessary it is that every element of expense should be carefully scrutinized, and that all departments should consult, to the end that this exchange of ideas shall promote a more perfect system of machinery for performing the company's business at a minimum of cost, and conserving of revenue.

The traffic man should know what and where are the faulty places on his road as relates to transportation and use of power, and in making rates or negotiating with other lines, make use of that information for the benefit of his company, and in exchange of courtesies or reciprocation in making rates, that same information will benefit his competitors. While we are all selfish, the business conditions of this era make of us broaderminded men than of years ago, and most men do appreciate the reciprocity idea when it is used by an honest man. In times gone by it was unusual to see the transportation and traffic departments work harmoniously, while now, that department which will not be brotherly soon experiences a change of staff. In old times a traffic man would have been astonished to receive a statement showing the freight ton miles for a given month, while now he looks anxiously for such statements, which show monthly the detailed movement of the various commodities his road handles, the average haul, the rate per ton mile, and so much valuable information that this concentration

"Making" Firemen.

MR. T. A. FOQUE (M., St. P. & S. Ste. M. Ry.): I believe that in selecting a wiper you should, as far as possible, select a future engineer. We follow that practice as far as possible ourselves, and I have seen the time when we were quite successful. At the present time so much can not be said in favor of the plan, because good men who are willing to work for wipers' wages are scarce, and material for future engineers is perhaps not so plentiful as it used to be.

But while in a way the nature of a

MR. J. BIRSE (Chicago Great Western Ry.) There is quite a wide scope to be taken into consideration on the subject of the wiper. From my experience with the wiper in the last three or four years you are unable to get any that make satisfactory engineers in every respect, on account of the wage question, but I believe that in sorting out these men they should be picked from a class with the judgment of the locomotive foreman as to the making of engineers, and you can make every bit as good an engineer out of a wiper as you can out of a machinist-helper. As far as the machinist-helper is concerned, they

wiper's work makes him untidy to look at, an untidy wiper should not be retained in that position. If he be of the right sort he will fill that position satisfactorily and then be advanced to the position of machinist-helper, which, in most roundhouses, carries an advance in pay. He has something to look forward to before going out on the road, and from the position of machinist-helper he can then be put onto an engine, and within my own experience I have seen a number of firstclass engineers who came up through the roundhouse in that way. The wiper's wages are probably as low as any, and if we want good men in those positions we can not consistently ask them to come and be a wiper all their lives with nothing to look forward to.

are handicapped now. They can't get anything to do, can't get any information; the machintsts' union has got them fixed. They don't learn anything any more, and you might as well take the wiper, and by educating the wiper you have got to take the educated young men. There is no trouble in getting a class of wipers that will make good firemen, and also engineers. My experience in hiring firemen has been to get the right young men that we might find in different locations handy at machinery, and take them out as students before starting them out. We have been very successful in that line. We have found it so on the road that I am with now. The best firemen that we have got now have never been wipers, but were picked up in that course.

MR. JOHN LYNCH (Chicago Great Western Ry.) I think that the hiring of firemen should be left to the traveling engineer, if you have one. He should be the best judge of who will be a good fireman. Let him accompany him over the road, and if he does his work satisfactorily, well and good, and if he does not, he is of no use. I think you can get just as good firemen from wipers as you can from any other class of labor. If a wiper knows he is going to be promoted to a fireman he will certainly try to do his work properly.

make the better engineer? And I can not but think the machinist-helper, the man who has possibly helped build the engine, and who at least has taken it down and understands its construction; he is the man who, in case of trouble or an emergency, is better qualified on the engine than the man who has simply cleaned it. In any case, it is a question of intelligence; but, other things being equal, I believe that the machinist-helper would make the better engineer.

MR. T. B. KEIM (Great Northern Ry.): In this discussion I have heard nothing

Possibly a machinist-helper would make a good fireman; possibly he would not. If he is adapted to that kind of work, well and good, and if he is not, he will be of no use in that kind of work. Possibly some of the gentlemen here do not believe in phrenology. I think the proper way to determine a man's fitness for a fireman is to examine his head.

PROF. J. J. FLATHER (University of Minnesota): Isn't the question a little broader? Should it not be Which will make the better engineer, the wiper or the machinist-helper? Are not the engineers made from firemen, and are not the firemen made from the raw material, wipers machinist-helpers? The question, therefore, it seems to me, is-Which will

or

said in reference to the machinist apprentice. When I entered the shops of a railroad company a great many years ago, there were fifteen besides myself who entered the shops as machinist apprentices. Seven of these men went out on the road as firemen and subsequently became engineers, the finest engineers that they ever had on our road. If anything happened to the engine they knew what to do. Seven of these machinist apprentices finished their trade, but did not remain at their trade; they wanted to become engineers, and they were at once put on engines, and, I say, are now successful engineers. I know some of them personally, and have had correspondence with them, and I know from the record of accidents that

when anything happened to their engines these men took right hold and they got to their destination.

MR. LYNCH: I would like to ask any of the old-time engineers here if they ever knew a machinist who went to running an engine, and what comparison he made with the men that were made from firemen? From my point of view, I don't recollect of a machinist ever making a first-class engineer; that is, coming up to the standard of the men that were raised as firemen. The machinist may have had some good education about the construction of an engine, etc., and after four or five years he may get along pretty well as

shop he would gain more knowledge as to the repairing of locomotives than on the road, and he would be in better shape to take charge of an engine after he was running.

MR. H. A. FERGUSSON (C. G. W. Ry.): It seems to me that it is not very fair to say to the wiper, "You get down there in that dirt and wipe the engine;" and then, after he has done it, to say, "You are too dirty to make a fireman of." A wiper spends his time trying to keep things clean, and in doing this it is natural that he should get a little dirt on himself. If a man makes a good wiper, and he has the right qualities and ability of which to

MR. GEO. H. HORTON (M., St. P. & S. Ste. M. Ry.): I do not think it matters much whether we make them out of wipers or machinist-helpers; it is the quality of the men we accept in the first place. It would be much the better plan to carefully select the man that you are putting firing, if you intended to place him in charge of an engine, and I do not think it would make any particular difference whether he came out of the roundhouse or out of the machine shop. If he were a man who had ability to become a fireman and eventually an engineer, it seems to me that he would do equally as well in one place as another, although by putting him in the machine

chinist-helper. Then you can find out what kind of stuff he has in him, and if he is the right sort make a fireman out of him.

MR. C. W. ROSSITER (N. P. Ry.): The only wipers that I am able to employ, with two exceptions, are young boys from eighteen to twenty-one years of age, who come from the high school in Minneapolis. Most of those coming from the high school come to me with the intention of getting on as firemen, simply because a son of one of the engineers came from the high school and took a position as wiper, and then machinist-helper, and in a short time was promoted to fireman, and is now one of the best firemen that we have on the road. In regard to employing wipers, I first get