Mrs. KILBRETH. I do not think that they would permit anything of that kind intentionally, but I do not know how it would be administered. I do not say that they would do it intentionally, but unintentionally

The CHAIRMAN. Just what part of the bill, will you point out, that will permit the doing of these things?

Mrs. KILBRETH. This bill provides for nontechnical advisers and investigators. It is going to be very difficult to state what those nontechnical officers will be. Now, this bill, if this whole thing were under medical experts, my objection would be much less, but the amendment that you have put in there puts it into the hands of the nontechnical advisers, and that means that everybody is eligible. I believe that if it should go through it should be restored so as to provide for nurses and doctors. They have nurses and doctors now in England—I do not know much about that, but I am informed that, I understand that the matter is in charge of physicians. But that was taken out in the amendment submitted by the Senate. Now, if you have one class of people medically, you will have to help others

The CHAIRMAN. I wish you would point out just what part of the bill will permit of this free-love matter; I would like to know about that.

Mrs. KILBRETH. I am not saying that the bill itself permits of it, but it leaves an opening for it. It is an entering wedge. It allows everybody, the nontechnical advisers

Senator MCKELLAR. I call attention to the following:

That any State desiring to avail itself of the benefits of this act shall, by its agency described in section 4, submit to the Children's Bureau for its approval detailed plans for carrying out the provisions of this act.

Mrs. KILBRETH. Oh, that is the State park.

Senator McKELLAR. Yes.

These plans shall include the provisions to be made in the State for the administration of the act; the provision for instruction in the hygiene of maternity and infancy through public-health nurses, consultation centers, and other suitable methods, if these plans shall be in conformity with the provisions of this act and reasonably appropriate and adequate to carry out its purposes. Due notice of approval shall be sent to the State agency by the chief of the Children's Bureau.

Mrs. KILBRETH. I am simply speaking of the Federal Board. Senator MCKELLAR. But it is under State control, as you will see. Mrs. KILBRETH. But I do not think that the State would control it. It would be interlocking. It is to be made acceptable to the Children's Bureau, and it would be what you would call interlocking,

I think.

Senator MCKELLAR. And do you mean to say that the Children's Bureau of the United States Government would be likely to enter into a scheme which had for its object the question of birth control?

Mrs. KILBRETH. I am not saying that anybody would do it intentionally, but I say that the people who have lobbied for this bill have been connected with the birth-control movement.

Senator MCKELLAR. I do not think it would have that effect, and I think that those who were in authority in the Children's Bureau would have enough sense to keep away from that

Mrs. KILBRETH. But that is your inference. And let me tell you, Senator, that there are a great many people who fear this propaganda very much. There are a great many people who are in Congress who do.

Senator McKELLAR. I do not think that it could be done. Mrs. KILBRETH. Do you realize that there are a great many physicians who are against this bill? Dr. Swain, the head of the Lyingin Hospital of Boston, and various doctors who are connected with the Johns Hopkins University, are not in favor of this bill, and they would be here, but they have not been given the time to make their appearance. You must remember one thing about this bill, that it has not had sufficient publicity. The papers have been very reticent about it. It really has not been brought to the attention of the people very much. A great many may appear to have indorsed it who do not know anything about it. Dr. Swain don't know anything about it, for instance, and he has not had an opportunity to come here.

The CHAIRMAN. It has not had publicity? was before Congress yourself, did you not?

You knew this bill

Senator MCKELLAR. Why, I have got more letters about this than I have about any other bill before Congress.

Mrs. KILBRETH. We consider that there is really humanitarian beneficent part of the bill, but there is a socialistic part of the bill, and it has been admitted that it was half socialistic, and we think that the socialistic part of the bill ought to be eliminated.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know how many babies die in the United States every year through the lack of proper treatment?

Mrs. KILBRETH. No, I do not know anything about it. I understand about the mothers-that was taken up by Senator Thomas on the floor of the Senate at some length, and he said that he understood that while conditions were very deplorable, still it was but normal.

The CHAIRMAN. And do you know how many mothers die because of the lack of proper treatment?

Mrs. KILBRETH. The only figures I have been able to get were those of Senator Thomas, as I say, but I am not here to talk on that part of the question at all.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. I submit that there should be ample opportunity given to others who desire to place their views before the committee, and it seems to me that it is only proper to have the people come before the committee and to give them an opportunity to present their views before this committee reports on the bill.

Mrs. KILBRETH. I have asked several women down in my part of the country, at Hampton, Long Island, if they would welcome these political investigators to be sent out, and their answer was that they did not want these people to come snooping around their homes.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know that there are 250,000 babies of this country lost every year because the mothers do not understand the

Mrs. KILBRETH (interrupting). And I suppose that they will be helped by these nontechnical officers? But I do not want to discuss the technical part of the bill.

The CHAIRMAN. But that is the socialism that you are talking about.

Mrs. KILBRETH. I do not see how the nontechnical officers, being political appointees, are going to help.

The CHAIRMAN. Suppose that we did not have the nontechnical officers, but we had medical officers, do you think that the socialistic

Mrs. KILBRETH. I think that those plans are all right in the States

The CHAIRMAN. But would it not be socialism for the State to do that?

Mrs. KILBRETH. I think it is absolutely for the State to meet its own special conditions.

The CHAIRMAN. But if the State does not meet those conditions. should not the country at large? Has not the country at large any interest in these matters at all?

Mrs. KILBRETH. It certainly should be under medical people-
The CHAIRMAN. But I want to know about this socialism.

Mrs. KILBRETH. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. In talking with these women down there by the country home at Long Island, did you discuss socialism with them? Mrs. KILBRETH. No; they don't know anything about socialism. Their husbands look after them.

The CHAIRMAN. Do you know how many mothers die in this country every year?

Mrs. KILBRETH. I do not; but Senator Thomas said that there were about 23,000; and he also said that it was about normal.

Senator KENYON. You believe it would be an element of socialism if the Government should try and save the mothers?

Mrs. KILBRETH. No; I do not think they are going to save them. That is not the way to save them.

Senator MCKELLAR. What way would you suggest?

Mrs. KILBRETH. What means do I suggest?

Senator McKELLAR. Yes.

Mrs. KILBRETH. I suggest absolutely that we give whatever help is possible in local points in the States. Mrs. Gibbs, whom I wanted to speak here, is one of the chief workers in Maryland in the babies milk foundation, and in these different things which have to do with mothers, and she is a woman with much familiarity

The CHAIRMAN. And do you desire to have her come?

Mrs. KILBRETH. Yes; Mrs. Gibbs, of Maryland, and Mrs. B. L. Robinson, of Cambridge, head of the Public Interests League of Boston.

The CHAIRMAN. Who else; who are your doctors?

Mrs. KILBRETH. Dr. Swain, of Boston.

The CHAIRMAN. And do you know that he is ready to come?

Mrs. KILBRETH. Of course, he is the greatest obstetrician in the State. He is on record against the bill.

The CHAIRMAN. And can you state that he is ready to come? Mrs. KILBRETH. I will endeavor to find out by long-distance telephone.

The CHAIRMAN. Will Thursday be a good time?

Mrs. KILBRETH. I should think that Thursday would be.

The CHAIRMAN. Is that satisfactory to the members of the committee? Shall we have them here on Thursday?

Mrs. KILBRETH. At what time?

The CHAIRMAN. At 10.30. Are there any others that you want to be heard at this time or at that time?

Mrs. KILBRETH. Yes; Mrs. Gibbs, who is very familiar with the work, and Dr. Goodnow, of Johns Hopkins, is very much opposed to

this particular bill as an invasion of State rights. We have his statement about it. Mrs. Gibbs has all those statements.

The CHAIRMAN. And are those all of the people you desire to be heard?

Mrs. KILBRETH. Another, Mrs. Randolph; and she has a great number of names against this bill, I think.

Senator SHEPPARD. Mr. Chairman, let me state that this bill had absolutely no connection in any way with the birth-control movement. I want to say further that the governors of 35 States have written and put themselves on record as in favor of a measure of this kind. Justice Smith of New York writes as follows:

The State of New York will be among the first to give the Federal Government effective cooperation in carrying out the provisions of the Sheppard-Towner bill.

Mr. Chairman, this is not an invasion of State rights. There is not anything compulsory about it at all. This information is made. available to individuals if they desire it, but they do not have to have it unless they do desire it. There is not any invasion of the home in any respect whatsoever. It recognizes the integrity of the States, and it is founded on that idea. It is based on the same principles as are the other bills which cooperate with the States-the Federal good roads act, the Federal vocational training act, and the agricultural extension act. There is a long list of representative women's organizations which indorse the bill, and which I have right here, that is in answer to this charge of socialsim that has been made here. Senator WARREN. We have got the bill before us. Are there any ladies here that you know of

Senator SHEPPARD. I am not a member of the committee, Senator. I am here with the ladies on behalf of the measure. I will say, Senator Warren, during the course of the debate on the Senate floor, you made a speech as to the amount that the Federal Government could afford to spend on this line, and out of regard for the argument advanced by you, the appropriation was materially reduced.

Senator WARREN. It was not reduced a penny the first year. Senator SHEPPARD. We introduced it providing for $1,000,000 per annum, whereas originally it provided for $4,000,000 in four years. Senator MCKELLAR. Are there any provisions in the bill that provide for anyone going snooping around private homes?

Senator SHEPPARD. Not at all. If anyone does not desire this information it will not be forced upon them. The information is available to all who desire it.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. What is the theory? How is it carried out? What do the persons do?

Senator SHEPPARD. It is carried out through the States' health agencies, through advisory committees which shall be selected by the State agencies, composed of citizens who desire to serve and establish a community center, where the services of public-health nurses are available. That is the center of information, and is at the command of the people who desire it.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. There is nothing compulsory about it? Senator SHEPPARD. Nothing whatever, either on the States or on anybody.

Senator WARREN. You provide for inspectors from the department, and a great deal of the expense will have to be provided for in some

way.

STATEMENT OF MRS. MAUD WOOD PARK, REPRESENTING NATIONAL LEAGUE OF WOMEN VOTERS.

Senator SHORTRIDGE. There are several members who have not been on this committee up to the present time, and without asking that everything should be repeated that has been brought before the committee before, I would like to ask the witness to give us the cardinal points as if we were the original committee hearing this.

Mrs. PARK. I expected, Mr. Chairman and gentlemen of the committee, that if anything was to be said about this bill it would be said in regard to the bill itself, but the previous speaker has raised so many questions quite remote from the consideration of the bill, that I want to ask whether I am to be permitted to make one or two statements about the points which do not directly relate to the bill, but were advanced by the previous speaker?

The CHAIRMAN. You may follow out your own plan. You may go ahead.

Mrs. PARK. Mr. Chairman, I represent the Women's Joint Committee for the Sheppard-Towner bill. This consists of representatives of 10 of the great national organizations that have indorsed this measure, including the W. C. T. U., the General Federation of Women's Clubs, the National Women's Trade Union League, the National Consumers' League, the Young Women's Christian Association, the Girls' Friendly Society, the Council of Jewish Women, the American Home Economic Association, the National Federation of Business and Professional Women's Clubs, and the National League of Women Voters.

The CHAIRMAN. You are the president of the National League of Women Voters?

Mrs. PARK. I am president of the National League of Women Voters, and I have been asked by the committee to speak for the other organizations.

The CHAIRMAN. They have indorsed this bill, the National League of Women Voters?

Mrs. PARK. Yes, the National League of Women Voters has indorsed the bill, and has repeated its indorsement. May I say a word about the way that the indorsements were taken in our association, because some question has been raised about the manner in which the indorsements of the bill have been procured. Our organization had the bill presented to it at its previous convention, 14 months ago, by the Committee on Child Welfare, of which Mrs. Percy Pennypacker was chairman. Last February, two months in advance of the recent convention, we sent out a recommendation that it be indorsed this year to all State leagues, with the result that the leagues have discussed it pro and con, and the delegates came to the convention prepared to express an intelligent opinion on it. The bill was recommended again, and again indorsed by the convention last week. The measure has been very carefully studied by our organization. The CHAIRMAN. How many women are represented in the League

of Women Voters?

Mrs. PARK. Approximately 2,000,000, and we are only one of the great national organizations that have indorsed the bill. The Daughters of the American Revolution repeated their indorsement last week. And the National Congress of Mothers and Parent Teacher