Miss LATHROP. Every effort is to preserve life. I would like to add, if I may, that many physicians of the highest authority are in favor of this measure, and that at previous hearings it was indorsed by one of the most distinguished obstetricians in the United States, probably, who was a witness before your committee.

Senator WARREN. I would like to ask one or two technical questions, if I may, something of the way that you would start in connection with the State in the matter of the expenditure of money. How would you go about the expenditures of the money throughout the States?

Miss LATHROP. The bill provides that we are

Senator WARREN. I know what the bill provides, but just how would you go about that?

Miss LATHROP. If it were to go into operation to-morrow morning, I would give it out that the medical personnel in the bureau would have in its administration, and I would call upon the governor of every State who desires to cooperate for the purpose of securing a clear understanding of the methods of cooperation between the State and the Federal Government in carrying out the act, and with the head of the health department of the States, and the child hygiene division, and try to learn what the conditions were in that State and what they wanted.

Senator WARREN. That would take a considerable time. Would you do any of that through the mails before that?

Miss LATHROP. Yes. By correspondence with each State the bureau would become acquainted with its plans for work under the measure so as to ascertain that the work in the States is carried out according to the provisions of the act.

Senator WARREN. Would there be anything in the way of erecting any establishments, or anything that would require a large expenditure of money, that would not be annually spent? What have you in your mind about that?

Miss LATHROP. In the first place, the bill forbids any Government building

Senator WARREN. I know, but I mean an establishment. I know how the bill reads.

Miss LATHROP. Isn't it true that 5 per cent is by the bill authorized for the administration of the provisions

Senator WARREN. Yes.

The CHAIRMAN. Yes; it is limited to 5 per cent. Senator PHIPPS. For use in the States themselves. The bill provides so much, not to exceed 5 per cent, of the amount authorized for any fiscal year under the act, as the Children's Bureau may estimate to be necessary for administering the provisions of the act, shall be deducted for that purpose to be available until expended. I want to know where you are going to spend that, or if a fair construction of it would be to take it from each State and spend it in the State.

Miss LATHROP. I understand that $50,000 is the amount that we will have to have in order to continue our gathering and distributing of information in these various States.

Senator WARREN. What I want to get at is your understanding. Miss LATHROP. That is my understanding.

Senator WARREN. Now, as to the money which is handed to the States, I am assuming then that they will run their expenses.

Miss LATHROP. I think that they will run them as they choose, under the provisions of the act. You can not offer a uniform plan to all of the States, because in all of the States there is a difference of conditions and because of the constitutions in the States they must make different plans.

Senator WARREN. Your proposition would be that so far as the $480,000 is concerned, that you would set aside immediately $10,000 to each State?

Miss LATHROP. Yes; if the plan of this bill was accepted.

Senator WARREN. So that that part of it would not take very much time. When you speak of visiting these various States, and visiting the governors, what would be the first thing to do

Miss LATHROP. Of course, I would first do it by correspondence. Senator WARREN. I know.

Miss LATHROP. In one State it might be done in one way and in another in another way. We want to get it started with an equal understanding of the responsibilities of the States and of the Govern

ment.

The CHAIRMAN. Are there any further questions?

Senator PHIPPS. Is there any State which has already organized a bureau of hygiene conducting work along the lines proposed in this bill, and if so, what States are they?

Miss LATHROP. The States have been increasingly organizing in their departments of health, child hygiene divisions, and most of the States have done so since 1918 and 1919, when we made a special effort

Senator PHIPPS. Your bureau was established when?

Miss LATHROP. In 1912. We have tried to stimulate those States to go along the lines of information and education

Senator PHIPPS. Do you recall how many States there are in that category?

Miss LATHROP. There are 35 States, I think, which have already

Senator PHIPPS. There are 35 that are in favor of this aid to the States. My question was, how many are now conducting these bureaus of hygiene?

Miss LATHROP. That is what I mean. They have such bureaus of child hygiene in the State health agency. They have very recently organized them, and many of them have little money.

Senator PHIPPS. What is the particular need for those States calling on the National Government for aid?

Miss LATHROP. I suppose it is that thus far all States are not as well persuaded as the Federal Government of the possibility of controlling and reducing the risk to mothers and children. They never have realized what the problem was, and they look to the Federal Government, I think, for information and suggestions. It is fair to say that in nine years since the bureau has been established, its very slender fund used in the way of publication has aroused an interest in this problem. The way to meet it is by local activities solely by county communities, with community nurses and with a traveling

service

Senator PHIPPS. The question arises naturally, first, why do not the States conduct this work themselves? Why do they wait for the Federal Government to take the initiative?

Miss LATHROP. I suppose the very same lack of economic power which has made them unable to take any other responsibilities for the other activities to which the Government is giving aid. It is far less a matter of obvious economic value to the average American as yet, as is the question of good roads and farm products. They are accustomed to spending money for those things, and they are not accustomed to regarding human life as anything but sentiment.

Senator MCKELLAR. The Government appropriates a considerable amount of money for the hogs and for the cattle

Miss LATHROP. I am informed that it does.

Senator PHIPPS. Let me ask whether in your correspondence with the State officials or bureaus you have developed any sentiment of resentment on their part by your inquiring into the affairs of the States?

Miss LATHROP. No. The difficulty with us is that we can not begin to answer requests for information and for assistance which come from the States. They come both from the child hygiene divisions of the States and from other public and private organizations in the various States.

Senator MCKELLAR. I want to ask you about one question of overhead. I will say that I am in favor of this bill. Now, you deduct 5 per cent of the appropriation, or $50,000, for administration. The Children's Bureau, having already been organized in such a fine working order, do you think it would be possible to reduce that amount, in your judgment? Of course we are interested in economy and in saving as much as possible, but do you think that it would be possible to reduce that amount of $50,000 a year for overhead?

Miss LATHROP. I can not tell at this time. Of course we can not do with the $1,480,000 what we could have done with the larger amount, but I am not making any complaint. I do think that if you can not make an administration of value with what we have, we are on the wrong track and ought to fail. I certainly shall not use that $50,000 if it is not necessary to do so, and I think we have got to do with this matter what we have always tried to do in the States in the matter of infant mortality, and that is to make the people see what the conditions are in their own localities. The minute that you see a map with your town marked on it there is a different sense of responsibility. The law provides the establishment of local health centers and of instructive public health nursing as a part of a State plan and it would be the duty of the bureau, as I conceive it, to publish and distribute widely all the best available practical information as to character, organization, and management of such centers and nursing service.

Senator WARREN. We appropriated for the last year or, rather, prevented an addition to the so-called Women's Bureau connected with your department

Miss LATHROP. Yes, sir; that is for the bureau having to do with the industrial conditions-the women who work outside of their homes.

Senator WARREN. What relation has that with this matter that we have under discussion?

Miss LATHROP. Mr. Chairman, I think it has nothing directly, because that bill is an off-shoot of the Bureau of Labor Statistics, a bureau to inquire into the conditions and the wages of the women.

It was thought by some that not enough attention was given to the women in industry, and a separate department was created, with special interests and responsibilities, and so on.

I do not think that a bureau devoted to the interest of wage earning women is in a position to take up this technical_piece of work in which we have been engaged for nine years. I do not presume to say how many overheads there may be, but if we can not invite the young people, and the people of education to come in, we shall get a very machinelike way of dealing with these matters, which are social and economical and scientific, and we shall not be able to maintain them as social and economical and scientific features very long.

Senator WARREN. Do you think that we are getting results in subdividing and having separate heads under one broad line? Do you think that it is worth all of the extra expense in order to do that way, rather than to have a bureau of the department in connection with the head of the department?

Miss LATHROP. No; there is before Congress a proposition consolidating and trying to make fewer departments, and there is a great deal of thought and a great deal of work in regard to it.

Senator WARREN. I would like to know what you think about that, whether this Children's Bureau or Women's Bureau, or the bureau having to do with the women in labor, whether there is to be perfect harmony with all of those, or whether this added expense with the prevailing wages, which are double what they used to be, whether the physicians who go out and the general superintendents who go out, whether they can do the work for all of the divisions and gain for you the information regarding the conditions at the various points in all of the different lines, whether it is better to have it that way, or whether it is better to have different people for the different lines traveling all of the time?

Miss LATHROP. Of course, the Children's Bureau is a bureau primarily of investigation and research. If this law goes into effect, it would add some administrative duties, but its real duties would be comparatively little changed.

Senator WARREN. Along these lines, you already suggested that this bill originated with you. In originating this, I think you provided for a separate head for it, but now Congress has changed that, and are you prepared to say that childbirth, and all of the various activities, this care of the children, etc., should be all together, or that it should be subdivided again, the maternity and the care of the child which does not come properly under your department?

Miss LATHROP. That original bill provided that the law should be administered by a board to consist of the Bureau of Education, Public Health Service and the Secretary of the Department of Labor, and the Children's Bureau was to be the executive. In the Senate before the bill was passed it was changed, as you have observed, and at my special request it was, however, provided that there might be an advisory committee created which would consist of a representative of the Department of Agriculture and the Public Health Service and the Head of the Bureau of Education, because I felt that while the Children's Bureau is the recognized head, that field of applied social science is one of basic importance to the prosperity of the country, that it must be understood that the special sciences of medicine,

education and agriculture, having in interest in the human welfare in that respect, ought to be brought into the same correlated activities with the Children's Bureau.

STATEMENT OF MRS. HENRY W. KEYES.

The CHAIRMAN. You will not be offended, I take it, Mrs. Keyes, if I will ask you if your husband is a member of the Senate?

Mrs. KEYES. Not at all; being only that by marriage to the Senator is perhaps why I am so interested in seeing that it does good work.

When I first came before this committee, which was a year ago, I came as an antisuffragist, however, in favor of the bill, and I was not connected with any organization at all. I came simply as a farmer's wife, who has done work in the rural districts, where there has been much suffering by the women, and I came as a mother, and, having three sons, I do not suppose that I will be accused of having very much interest in birth control.

I will say, Mr. Chairman, that I have written the resolution adopted by the Daughters of the American Revolution, so though I am not an official representative of it, I have been connected with an organization of 200,000 women in that way, and also I have been asked to represent the National League of American Pen Women, of which I am vice president, and which for a long time has been doing everything in its power to procure the passage of this bill.

Let me say, Mr. Chairman, when a witness against this bill appears before this committee and says that it has not had much publicity, I could not help but wonder if she knows that two of the largest women's magazines in the United States, Good Housekeeping, with a circulation of a million or more, and Pictorial Review, with a very large circulation, have constantly published articles in favor of this bill. Then, you must take into consideration that it represents about five times as much as the circulation, because one is read by five different people, and that a great many of the newspapers throughout the country, among them the Public Ledger and the Boston Transcript, have published articles in regard to this bill, which I think may safely be said to stand for all that is self-respecting, and even so conservative a magazine as the Atlantic Monthly has come out in favor of this help for mothers.

Mr. Chairman, you have already been given the statistics by women more capable of giving them than I am, and you have had the women's organizations represented before you by women much more capable than I am, and I am going to speak in a rather different vein. I will illustrate my remarks by telling a story which was told to me by the wife of one our southern Senators. She said that on her plantation was an old darky mammy, who came to her and informed her that she had been sent as a delegate to the convention of one of her societies. She wanted to know what she would talk about. The Senator's wife told her to say whatever came into her mind. Being somewhat interested in the old mammy, the Senator's wife went to hear what the old darky would say, and her time came to speak very late in the day, and she arose to her feet and she said, "Well, we have been here for some long time, and we have heard about how women is coming and coming and coming, and all I wish to say is that I think she is came."