Senator FERGUSON. Where the witness himself, who made the chart. says there were no other targets that morning, in the statement, and you bring in the conclusion of an officer that there were?

Colonel THIELEN. I do not consider it a conclusion, sir. It is a plot.

Senator FERGUSON. What is it?

Colonel THIELEN. It is a written record, sir. It is a plot.

Senator FERGUSON. Who made it?

Colonel THIELEN. Lieutenant Colonel Murphy.

Senator FERGUSON. What did he make it from? Did he make it from the one I gave you?

Colonel THIELEN. From the records of the Opana station. I cannot say what he saw when he made this record.

Senator FERGUSON. How do you account for two records of that station then?

Colonel THIELEN. One of them covers the entire day, sir, and one covers the critical period.

[411]

Senator FERGUSON. How could the one that followed, that covered the entire day, be any different than the one that gave them the exact period, and that is up to 7:39?

Colonel THIELEN. In what way, sir?

Senator FERGUSON. How could they differ? The one that covered all day, how could it be different from the one that covered it up to 7:39? I take it the 7: 39 chart up to that point, would be complete up to that time, would it not?

Colonel THIELEN. Yes, sir, that would be the supposition.

Senator FERGUSON. Then it would not have any thing on that was not on this chart. Now where do you get this 6:50 and 6:45, if this man who made the chart said he did not have any other targets on that day?

Colonel THIELEN. Where do I get it, sir?

Senator FERGUSON. Yes.

Colonel THIELEN. I get it from the so-called historic plot.

Senator FERGUSON. All right. Now will you give us when the first bomb was dropped again?

Mr. MURPHY. Mr. Chairman, will the gentleman suspend a minute until I can look at the report and the exhibit on which he questioned the witness?

Senator FERGUSON. Yes.

[412]

Mr. MURPHY. Will you pass them over, please?

The CHAIRMAN. Will we have to suspend in order to do that?
Mr. MURPHY. No; I just made the request.

Senator FERGUSON. I want them back. I have some other ques

tions.

Mr. MURPHY. All right, in just a minute.

The CHAIRMAN. Go ahead, Senator.

Senator FERGUSON. Will you read my last question?

(The question was read by the reporter.)

Senator FERGUSON. What do your records show?

Colonel THIELEN. The observers at Hickam Field saw aircraft at 7:55 a. m. and the attack was initiated immediately, presumably the first bomb dropped within a matter of seconds after 7:55 a. m.

Senator FERGUSON. 7:55 a. m. All right. How do you account for the planes that came in at 7:39 to 7: 55? How do you account for their action from 7:39 to 7:55?

Colonel THIELEN. Well, I am not prepared to state positively that those planes appearing at 7:39 off Kahuku Point were the planes that appeared at Hickam Field at 7:55.

Senator FERGUSON. How far is the point 7:39 from Hickam Field? Colonel THIELEN. I should estimate that at approximately 60 miles. [413] Senator FERGUSON. About 60 miles. Do you know what Elliott said about how far he followed these planes in? Fifteen to twenty miles, did not he say?

Colonel THIELEN. I do not recall.

Senator FERGUSON. Do you know what the radar was doing at that time?

Colonel THIELEN. What the radar was doing, sir?

Senator FERGUSON. Yes.

Colonel THIELEN. I do not believe I understand the question, sir.
Senator FERGUSON. Will you read it?

Colonel THIELEN. I understood the words sir, but not the intent. I do not understand what is wanted.

Senator FERGUSON. Read the question.

(The question was read by the reporter.)

Senator FERGUSON. Do you know how the radar would function at that time?

Colonel THIELEN. How it would function?

Senator FERGUSON. Yes, whether it would take it 15 or 20 miles from the radar itself.

Colonel THIELEN. No, sir. I know that the lobe, so-called, sent out by the radar, behaves very erratically. I am not technically qualified to state how it would behave at that short range.

[414]

Senator FERGUSON. Have you examined Lockard's or Elliott's testimany about these targets before 7:02, during their socalled, as you call it, regular shift?

Colonel THIELEN. I did not direct their attention specifically to that; no, sir. They have unquestionably read that testimony in researching this particular phase.

Senator FERGUSON. As I understand it, instead of what the testimony shows you gave us a plot that was made up by Colonel Murphy. Colonel THIELEN. That is correct.

Senator FERGUSON. That is the way you leave the record, and that is the way it stands, is it not?

Colonel THIELEN. Yes, sir.

Senator FERGUSON. That is all.

Mr. MURPHY. Now, Mr. Chairman, I would like to make just one observation.

The CHAIRMAN. Mr. Murphy.

Mr. MURPHY. On Exhibit No. 4 which was offered in evidence there is a statement "Record of early flights December 7, 1941, obtained by Opana detector", and then the signature of Lieutenant Colonel Murphy.

On the exhibit which the gentleman from Michigan questioned the witness about there is a notification "Opana detector" and then some word that is illegible, "Record of early flights", [415] and then a notation which would seem to bear the initials of some other witness.

[416] So this record, Exhibit 4, is of the early flights, and this other notation by someone else appears not to be on the record in question, and I wish the witness would find out what the last of this notation on the lower right-hand corner of exhibit 3-B is, so we might see what the difference between the two exhibits is.

Colonel THIELEN. I will endeavor to find that out, sir. I learned that my researchers are familiar with that, consulted radar experts on it, and determined that it was generally illegible.

The CHAIRMAN. All right. Any further questions?

Mr. GEARHART. Mr. Chairman, may I ask for information from Admiral Inglis? He has been very accommodating up to now. I want to follow up the naval strength in both the Pacific and Atlantic.

I have in my hands a rough draft of what I would like to see in the record in the form of a chart. It asks for the strength of the German Navy as of May 1, additions from the then Vichy France, the Italian strength, and for the augmentation from Axis, Allies, or from other sources.

Then, in the last column, the total naval strength from all sources in the Atlantic and Mediterranean.

I ask for that same information as of December 7, 1941. Then, information to the same effect of Japanese strength [417] as of May 1, 1941, and as of December 7, 1941, in the Pacific, and for American strength in the Pacific with Allied augmentation both in respect to the Asiatic Fleet and Pacific Fleet.

If you can have that prepared, Admiral, and insert it in the record of today's proceedings, I would appreciate it very much. But if that is too short a time, I hope you can get it in by Monday.

Mr. MITCHELL. We will hand it to the Navy Department.1

Admiral INGLIS. We can have it ready for you by Monday. I am afraid we cannot by today.

Senator FERGUSON. Mr. Chairman.

The CHAIRMAN. Have you concluded, Mr. Gearhart?

Mr. GEARHART. Yes, sir.

Senator FERGUSON. Mr. Chairman, I ask now to put into evidence these two exhibits that I handed to the witness for identification, and I ask now that they be part of the record.

Mr. Counsel, will you tell us what numbers they will be?
Mr. MITCHELL. I will mark them as soon as I have them.
Senator FERGUSON. So they will get the correct numbers.
Mr. GESELL. One of them is already in evidence.

Mr. MITCHELL. Do you want them both? We already have

one.

Senator FERGUSON. Just the large one.

[418]

Mr. MITCHELL. At the request of Senator Ferguson, the document he has produced, which for identification has on it the words "Exhibit 3-B in evidence," apparently from some earlier proceedings, is now marked Exhibit 7, and offered in evidence.

The CHAIRMAN. All right.

(The document referred to was marked "Exhibit No. 7.") The CHAIRMAN. Any further questions?

The VICE CHAIRMAN. Mr. Chairman, in fairness to myself, as a member of the committee, I just simply want to say I do not share the views expressed or the remarks made to the admiral who has been

1 Admitted to the record as Exhibit No. 86.

appearing before us as a witness. I think both of these gentlemen have acquitted themselves with great credit and distinction, and are a distinct credit to the great services they represent.

The CHAIRMAN. Counsel will proceed now with anything further

he has.

Senator LUCAS. I would like to make a statement along the same line as Mr. Cooper.

The CHAIRMAN. Let me suggest that these two witnesses will be here for a while longer and at the conclusion of their testimony, it might be appropriate to have a testimonal [419] meeting with respect to the opinions of the committee with regard to this very testimony.

Senator LUCAS. I want to be the first one to testify when the testimonial meeting starts.

Mr. MURPHY. I would like to join in that too.

The CHAIRMAN. The Chairman wants to be in that too. Go ahead. Mr. MITCHELL. Admiral Inglis, one question. You spoke about Jap submarines entering Pearl Harbor. Are you referring to the midget submarines, so-called?

Admiral INGLIS. Yes, sir.

Mr. MITCHELL. Not the large seagoing submarines?

Admiral INGLIS. Not the large seagoing submarines; no, sir.

Mr. MITCHELL. As to those midget submarines, what does the record show as to how many men were in the crew?

Admiral INGLIS. I believe they were manned by a crew of two menthat is, two persons, I should say.

Mr. MITCHELL. A very small vessel?

Admiral INGLIS. Yes.

Mr. MITCHELL. Now, Admiral, I ask you if you have brought here, at my request, all of the documents in the Navy from Japanese sources relating to the Japanese account of the attack at Pearl Harbor?

[420] Admiral INGLIS. Substantially everything except the communication intelligence material which I believe counsel has from other sources and not from me.

The CHAIRMAN. A little louder. We could not hear the last remark. (The answer was read by the reporter.)

Mr. MITCHELL. I do not understand, I thought you produced here all of the material from Jap sources which have made any disclosure. as to what they did in respect to this attack.

Admiral INGLIS. I wanted to be quite meticulous.

Mr. MITCHELL. You mean the espionage documents, do you? Admiral INGLIS. I mean the material you referred to as cryptic analytical.

Mr. MITCHELL. Yes.

Admiral INGLIS. I think you have that. You did not get it from me. Mr. MITCHELLS That is right. Now, let us look at this material and see what it is. I hand you a bundle of loose sheets in the Japanese language. What is that?

Senator FERGUSON. Mr. Chairman, does the record show clearly when counsel received these papers? Have you made clear on the record when you received these papers, counsel?

[421]

Mr. MITCHELL. I think I received these original documents within the last 24 hours.

79716-46-pt. 1— -14

Senator FERGUSON. About when did you get them?

Mr. MITCHELL. You mean the exact hour?

Senator FERGUSON. When? There are two sets of them and I would just like to know when counsel got them.

Mr. MITCHELL. My assistants says these documents reached me ap proximately 2 p. m. yesterday afternoon.

Senator FERGUSON. Two p. m. yesterday afternoon.

Has counsel had time to examine each one of them?

Mr. MITCHELL. We went over them in a rough way. I have not spent much time on this document in the Japanese language, but we thought we would get back to the original source here.

Senator FERGUSON. Did they give you translations?

Mr. MITCHELL. They are in the papers here.

Senator FERGHISON. They are among the papers?

Mr. MITCHELL. Yes. May I ask him about what these are, Senator! Senator FERGUSON. Yes. I do not know.

Mr. MITCHELL. I want you to know.

What is this document, this bundle of photostats here in the Jap

anese language? Will you state generally what that is? Admiral INGLIS. There are photostat copies of two docu

[422]

ments in the Japanese language which my translators inform me are Japanese top secret operation orders No. 1 and No. 2.

Mr. MITCHELL. That is a staff plan, do you mean, a staff order? Admiral INGLIS. It is a plan and an order, in effect.

Mr. MITCHELL. Will you look over these other documents and just generally describe what they are.

Admiral INGLIS. This first one I have is a translation of a captured document; the title is "Submarine School Notes Concerning Early War Experiences Off Hawaii."

Senator FERGUSON. Could I inquire from counsel when counsel requested these documents from the Navy?

Mr. MITCHELL. Well, I think these particular documents I asked him to bring in here sometime yesterday, because I understood the committee wanted all the original material on which any testimony was based.

Senator FERGUSON. I understand it has not been requested by counsel prior to yesterday.

Mr. MITCHELL. We had the operational order in English, the translation of it, but I did not have the Japanese rendition, if that is what you mean. I had a translation of it for some days, I think.

Senator LUCAS. You should have translated them right, Mr. Mitchell.

[423] Mr. MITCHELL. I could not swear to that.

Senator LUCAS. I know there are going to be a lot of questions about that.

Mr. MITCHELL. I do not suppose anybody can settle that question.
Will you go on, Admiral-if I may proceed uninterruptedly.
The CHAIRMAN. Yes, go ahead, gentlemen.

Admiral INGLIS. Are you ready, sir?

Mr. MITCHELL. All right. Go head.

Admiral INGLIS. The next document is entitled "Translation of a Captured Japanese Document. The professional notebook of an ensign in the Japanese Navy." The date is February 25, 1944.