schools include the high schools; we get some of our best technical men from the high schools.

By Mr. Deming:

Q. Have you had examinations for photographers, and electricians? A. We have had examinations for photographers, and electricians for the nautical almanac office, the examinations being in photography almost entirely except in the letter I have mentioned.

Q. Do you have an examination, competitive, for librarians? A. We examine competitively for all librarians and assistants; we examine in bibliography and library management and we generally require a knowledge of some modern and dead lauguages; we have included the principle modern, also Chinese, Japanese and Russian.

Q. Has that method been practicable and successful in securing good candidates? A. It has.

Q. Have you had any examinations of sanitary experts, and plumbing and heating experts, architects for metal constructions? A. We have.

Q. Do you have occasion to have butter experts, and oleomargarine experts? A. We have held an examination for an oleomargarine expert in the treasury department, a position paying $2,500.

Q. Have you been able to secure a capable man? A. We have. Q. In the war department do you have competitive examinations? A. We do; we have in every department.

Q. Do you have examinations in the war department for technical and scientific positions? A. Yes; for architects, civil engineers and for librarian; we have held examinations for editor and proofreader, for meteorological clerk; also an examination for craniological and anthropometrical expert; for photographers; for battery-men in the signal service; for anatomists in the Army Medical Museum, requiring a special technical knowledge of anatomy, etc.

Q. These examinations have proved to be successful? A. They have; the anatomist secured for the Army Medical Museum was a graduate from Johns-Hopkins, and an expert in his line.

Q. Take the patent office, in the interior department, for instance? A. The principal examination in the patent office is for the fourth assistant examiner; that is an especially technical examination and most of the successful candidates have passed through some school of technology; that examination requires a knowledge of chemistry, mathematics, physics, technics, and an ability to read mechanical drawings.

Q. Do you have any examination for draughtsmen? A. Yes, sir; we furnish draughtsmen for the coast and geodetic survey; for the land office; for the supervising architect's office; for the quartermaster-general's office; the Indian office; the United States Commission of Fish and Fisheries, etc.

Q. In the pension office are there any competitive examinations? A. There are-for medical pension examiners and for special pension examiners, who are required to have a knowledge of law, the law of evidence, marriage and divorce; if we put any particular studies into one of these technical examinations we only use so much as is needed by the position the man is to оссиру - we use for the special pension examiners only so much of law as the competitor would be required to know to properly perform the duties of the office.

Q. Familiar as you are with the working of the Federal civil service law, have you found in the application of the principle of competitive examinations any difficulty which would lead you to the conclusion that there are many positions in the public service for which a competitive examination could not be practially and successfully had? A. I have not found any position for which we can not hold a competitive examination.

Q. At the present time, as a result of your experience and the experience of several commissions, what is the proportion of noncompetitive positions to competitive positions within your classified lists? A. As I understand your schedule "C" I think there are very few, if any, of your non-competitive that don't belong in the competitive; in all of the branches of departmental service at Washington, the total number of classified positions is 10,048; of these there are 171 persons or one and four tenths per cent. subject to non-competitive examinations; in the custom service, where we have 2,286 classified positions, there are only nine in the non-competitive list; in the railway mail service there are but few, but I have not the figures with me; the few positions put in the non-competitive list are the transfer clerks at a few stations.

Q. What is the character of those positions? A. They are almost purely laborers' positions - they transfer mail from one train to another; in the Indian service there are no non-competitive examinations, except of Indians, for the position of assistant teacher; and in the postal service we have no noncompetitive examinations.

Q. I think you stated that the commissioners intend to abolish altogether these non-competitive examinations? A. They intend to abolish all in the end.

Q. I infer, as a result of experience in the Federal service, that the commission and yourself have come to the conclusion that

the competitive principle is the best method of getting the best men in the public service? A. I think it is.

Q. Is the real test of the administration of a civil service law to be found in the number of appointments to be made or in the number of examinations held, or is it to be found in the steady growth in the number of positions which can only be filled as a result of competitive examinations and a steady diminution of non-competitive examination? A. I think the latter.

Q. What is the test? A. The test is in the application of competitive examinations to all positions which can be brought properly within the classified service; that means everything below a presidential appointee and above a common laborer.

Q. Suppose you found within the limits of the classified service of any city or State that the competitive schedule remained at a standstill while the non-competitive and excepted schedules were growing, what would be your judgment in regard to the successful or non-successful administration of that law? A. Applying our laws and rules I should think it to be nonsuccessful.

Q. Assuming that the New York law in its schedules is similar to the Federal law, and also in its classification, and finding as the years go on that the competitive service remains at a standstill, while the non-competitive or excepted service grows, what is your judgment in regard to the successful or non-successful administration of that law? A. I should say that the competitive system ought to increase at the expense of the noncompetitive under a law correctly and properly administered.

Q. Assuming it does not, would you think there was any trouble with the administration of the law? A. I would.

Q. Suppose you found the competitive schedule actually diminishing and the other schedules growing at the same time, what would you say as to the administration of a law as good as the Federal law? A. I should say it was not properly administered.

Q. Have you read the civil service rules of this State? A. I have.

Q. Did you find anything in the rules as adopted here that would prevent the application of the principle of the increasing of the competitive list? A. I did not.

Q. The law may be nullified by lack of administration? A. I think so.

Q. The successful operation of the law will depend upon the sincerity with which it is administered? A. I think so.

Q. What has been the effect upon the classified service in the competitive schedule so far as the permanency of that service

is concerned? A. It has made it more permanent, and changes have been very few, only such as could be looked for in the ordinary wear and tear of the machinery, while in the excepted schedule there has been no permanency and removals have been by wholesale, the unclassified list in many offices having been entirely changed with only here and there an exception.

Q. Is it the general rule that the State receives better service from continuous employment? A. Yes, sir.

By Senator McMahon :

Q. Would you put a limit on that somewhere? A. I think not. The government is entitled to the education which the employe has acquired in its service and largely at its expense.

By Mr. Deming :

Q. What has been the effect of the Federal civil service law in regard to promotions? A. Promotion regulations have not been completed throughout the whole service because of the inability of the commission to attend to the details of it, but promotions have been affected very considerably by the attitude the commission has taken in regard to higher grade examinations. We have required that admission to higher grade positions should be through examination, which has resulted many times in forcing heads of departments to select an employe already in the service, rather than outsiders, which has resulted in the promotion of trained men to many of these places.

Q. Within your experience in the application of civil service principles to the federal service, has anything been done in regard to applying them to common laborers? A. They are not under our charge; the law stops at the laborers.

Q. It is like the New York law in that respect? A. Yes, I believe so.

By Mr. Van Vleet:

Q. The hypothetical question was asked you whether from your experience you thought the law had been properly administered; I would like to ask you if, under the civil service law of this State, in 1885, twenty-two men were appointed; in 1886, fifty-seven; in 1887, sixty-two; in 1891, seventy-one; in 1892, 101; in 1893, 129; whether those figures would indicate a falling off in the application of the civil service rules of the State? A. I don't know what the force of employes has been, but I think it ought to increase more rapidly than that.

By Senator O'Connor:

Q. Supposing the number of employes four or five years ago in the competitive list has actually lessened, what do you say as to the operation of this act; instead of that schedule increasing it was lessened? A. I should say it was not properly administered.

Mr. Van Vleet. The United States law was unlike the law of the State of New York in this; that the State of New York placed all positions at once under the civil service rules, and the United States didn't do that? A. Yes; it did; there has been no change in the law.

Q. The commission didn't attempt to put all the positions under the law at once? A. No.

Q. As a matter of fact, the civil service law took a big boost every time a President retired? A. All through each administration.

Q. They took up one department after another? A. No, sir; they took up all the principal departments at once.

Q. What about the railway mail service? A. That was taken up later; it belongs to the post-office department; it is only a branch of that department.

Q. All the official positions were not brought under the operation of this law at once? A. No, sir.

By Mr. Deming:

Q. What percentage of the employes of the United States are brought under the law excluding laborers? A. There are about 185,000 employes in the service of the general government, of whom about 69,000 are postmasters; 20,000 unclassified employes in post-offices, and about 25,000 laborers in different branches of the service; I don't know exactly the number in the legislative and judicial branches of the government; there are, however, at the present day in the classified service 43,535 persons; in the departments, bureaus and offices which are classified there are 49,271 employes and in those departments, bureaus, etc., there are, therefore, a little more than 5,000 that are not classified.

By Mr. Van Vleet:

Q. There are about 91,000 who are yet to be classified? A. No, sir; not unless postmasters, employes in legislative and judicial branches are yet to be classified.

Q. Are the marshals and deputies classified? A. No, sir.

Q. What percentage of the employes that ought to have been classified have been classified? A. I can't give you that; it is the commission's desire to bring in those in the sub-treasuries, the

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