Mr. PERKINS. I will again make this observation: that the Chair overrules the gentleman's point of order first because the gentleman's motion is dilatory. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Mr. Chairman, what is dilatory about a point of order, may I ask? Mr. PERKINS. The gentleman sat in the full committee the other morning. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. The gentleman was mistaken. I was not there. I demand that a rollcall be taken, Mr. Chairman, on whether or not a quorum of this committee is present. It is 5 minutes of 12 and I would like the record to establish that there is not a quorum present. I would be glad to say at the moment Mr. Carey of New York is here, and Mr. Brademas is here, and Mr. Pucinski is here, and Mrs. Green is here and Mr. Holland is here, and the acting chairman is here, and obviously I am here, and Mr. Ayres of Ohio is here and Mr. Quie is here, and Mr. Goodell is here, and Mr. Bell of California is here, and Mr. Gibbons-excuse me. That does not constitute a quorum. Mr. PERKINS. I want to make some observations and I hope the gentleman from New Jersey will not interrupt me. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I will make no promise. Mr. PERKINS. Present this morning we have had the acting chairman and Mr. Landrum, and we have had Mrs. Green and we have had Mr. Holland, and we have had Mr. Pucinski and Mr. Brademas, and we have had Mr. Carey and Mr. Sickles and Mr. Gibbons and Mr. Brown. On the Republican side we have had Mr. Frelinghuysen, Mr. Ayres, Mr. Quie, Mr. Goodell, and Mr. Bell. A quorum has not been present on occasion, but a quorum has been present this morning. There are only 29 members on the committee at the present time, and 15 members were in here when Mrs. Green made the observation. That is not my point. I am overruling the gentleman's point of order because the motion is dilatory. He had the chance to thrash this out with the chairman of the full committee. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. At a meeting at which I was not present, I had a chance to thrash something out? Mr. PERKINS. And then the Chair rules that for the purpose of taking testimony, a quorum of the full committee consists of two members. Now, I know that the rules are not explicit on this particular point, but the chairman so ruled, and I am just upholding the ruling of the chairman of the full committee. The reasons for this ruling are set forth in rule 2, rule 9, and rule 12, part of the rules of the Committee on Education and Labor. Now, this committee has also adopted paragraph 25 of rule 11 of the House of Representatives, subparagraph (h), which supports the ruling of the Chair. Under rule 2 of the committee, the Rules of the House of Representatives insofar as they are applicable are specifically stated to be the rules of the committee. By the adoption of rule 25 (h) of the rules of the House, the committee has established that quorum for conducting of sessions for the purpose of taking testimony and receiving evidence shall be not less than two members. I Now, this was the ruling of the chairman of the full committee. well realize that I was not present and in charge of the drafting of the rules. The chairman was. If I had been, I would have certainly provided some further language for clarity. But the Chair overrules the point of order of the gentleman at this time, and a quorum is not present at this time. We will proceed with taking testimony. Mrs. GREEN. It now is 12 o'clock and I do not know whether permission has been obtained for the committee to sit. Mr. PERKINS. If a point of order is made, we will have to recess. Mrs. GREEN. The ruling of the Chair could be appealed and that seems to be the intention of my colleague on the other side of the aisle. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I certainly intend to, when the gentlewoman yields. Mrs. GREEN. The request was made by the Department that hearings be held by the full committee, but the purpose of these hearings will be defeated if we spend the time in arguing and quarreling. Any legislation that is going to be passed must have bipartisan support, and it is entirely dependent upon the good will of the members of this committee, it is obvious. I see nothing to be gained if we pursue the procedure that we have in the last 2 days of quarreling over procedure. If we are not going to have a quorum of the full committee in these next 2 weeks, I think consideration should be given to some other mode of operation. I had hoped that we would have an executive session where this might be decided at the end of today's meeting. May I ask unanimous consent, Mr. Chairman, that an executive session be called tomorrow morning at 9:45 because the House is in session now, and that following that, if witnesses are to be heard, that it be at 10 o'clock? I would ask unanimous consent for an executive session at 9:45 in the morning. Mr. PERKINS. Mrs. Green, I am going to put your question, and I wish to concur in your suggestion. I had intended to speak with the full committee, that we were going to operate from a democratic viewpoint, and insofar as I was concerned, the committee was going to work its will. You certainly have the right to appeal the ruling of the Chair, and, in fact, I have always myself believed that a majority of the full committee should be present, but I took the viewpoint today that this is dilatory tactics, because the question wasn't raised when the chairman was here. He stated his commitment to the full committee to conduct these hearings. I simply have been trying to carry out the commitment of the chairman, especially since the question was not raised when the chairman explained the whole situation to the full committee. I know the Republican members want to get away and be gone the next 8 or 10 days, and if it is the will of the committee to permit that to be done, I certainly have no objection. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Mr. Chairman, if the gentleman will allow an observation Mr. PERKINS. Proceed with your observation. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I should like to call attention to the fact that it is after 12, but I certainly do not want to question the legality or the compounding of the illegality of this meeting. I do feel, however, that the gentle lady from Oregon has made a good point. We are obviously not going to get anywhere proceeding as we have, launched prematurely into an investigation of a major subject on the basis that we are. I consider this whole thing an insult to every member of this committee, and also to the witnesses. To have established the fact that a quorum of this committee can be as few as two, without any adoption of any rule to that effect, strikes me Mr. PUCINSKI. If the gentleman will yield to me on that, will you yield for a question? Haven't we always done that in the past, your subcommittees and various subcommittees of this committee? This is not the first time that this rule is being followed. We held hearings all over the Hill here with two members and this is a rule of the committee. Why didn't the gentleman make his objection when the rules of this committee were being approved? Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. If I may be permitted to comment on that, as I have said over and over again, but nobody seems to listen, I did not happen to be here on the day that the rules of the committee were adopted. That is one reason I didn't comment on them. I called the chairman the day before and asked if there was going to be a meeting, and he said that he did not anticipate a quorum, but he thought there would be a meeting. There was no discussion that it was going to result in the adoption of the rules. Mr. GIBBONS. A point of order. Mr. PERKINS. The point has been made that the House is in session. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Who has made that point? Mr. GIBBONS. I made the point of order. I am tired of listening to you. Mr. PERKINS. The committee will recess until 9:30 a.m., Wednesday, February 6. (Whereupon, at 12:05 p.m. the committee recessed, to reconvene at 9:30 a.m., Wednesday, February 6, 1963.) NATIONAL EDUCATION IMPROVEMENT ACT WEDNESDAY, FEBRUARY 6, 1963 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, Washington, D.C. The committee met at 9:55 a.m., pursuant to recess, in room 429, Cannon Building, Hon. Carl D. Perkins presiding. Present: Representatives Perkins, Landrum, Green, Roosevelt, Thompson, Holland, Pucinski, Daniels, Brademas, O'Hara, Carey, Hawkins, Sickles, Gibbons, Gill, Brown, Frelinghuysen, Ayres, Griffin, Goodell, Quie, Bruce, Ashbrook, Martin, Bell, Findley, and Taft. Staff present: Dr. Deborah P. Wolfe, education chief; Richard Burress, minority clerk. Mr. PERKINS. A quorum is present, and the committee will come to order. I think we should call on Mr. Frelinghuysen this morning to introduce two new members recently assigned to this committee. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, I am very glad of this opportunity to welcome the two new members who were selected yesterday by the Republicans to serve on this committee. Mr. Paul Findley, of Illinois, is next to the end; and at the end is the most junior member of our team, Mr. Robert Taft, of Ohio. Mr. Chairman, if it would be in order, I should like to move that the committee now go into executive session. Mr. THOMPSON. Mr. Chairman. Mr. PERKINS. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from New Jersey, Mr. Thompson. Mr. THOMPSON. Is that seconded? Mr. BELL. Second the motion. Mr. THOMPSON. I have a substitute. I move that as a substitute, that we proceed with the hearings as we are now. Mr. HOLLAND. I second the motion. Mr. ROOSEVELT. I second the motion. Mr. PERKINS. It has been moved and seconded that we proceed with the hearings as we are now proceeding, and that has been offered as a substitute motion. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I will withdraw my motion, Mr. Chairman, if there is a substitute. Mr. PERKINS. Well, let the vote come on the substitute, and I will ask the clerk to call the roll this morning. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Mr. Chairman, do I hear the substitute again? Mr. THOMPSON. We proceed with the hearings on the legislation in open session. Mr. GOODELL. Well, Mr. Chairman. |