Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Proceed this morning or proceed for the next 2 weeks? Mr. THOMPSON. Proceed as agreed upon earlier for the 2-week period. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Mr. Chairman, the committee agreed on nothing that I know of. The chairman set up the straitjacket, and then deserted us. Mr. THOMPSON. Mr. Chairman, I have not yielded to the gentleman. If he wants me to yield, I will be glad to, and we will discuss this. Mr. PERKINS. The clerk will call the roll. Mr. GOODELL. Mr. Chairman, this is a debatable motion, I believe. Mr. GOODELL. I will yield to the gentleman, if he wants me to. Mr. GOODELL. Mr. Chairman, I think that I don't want to speak for the gentleman from New Jersey, Mr. Frelinghuysen, but speaking for myself, and I think many of us who want some constructive legislation in this field, we feel that the sooner we jump off this omnibus, the better, because it is headed for a crackup; you are just going to divide the ranks of the supporters, unite the ranks of the opposition. We are raising tremendous emotional rifts that are unnecessary, and that if we close off these hearings now, and make our decision as to how we are to proceed at this stage, we will have a much better chance of getting, many of us believe, our priority needs in the field of education. Now this is just a charade. I think if you took a vote around here secretly among the members, you would find unanimous feeling that we are not going to pass a bill in the omnibus nature, so why do we go through this? It is not going to accomplish a thing. We are going to have to call back all of these people again for the specific legislation when the time comes. Mr. LANDRUM. Would the gentleman yield? Mr. GOODELL. Yes. Mr. LANDRUM. Why do you want to take the vote secretly? Let's take it openly. Mr. GOODELL. All right, we are delaying this. I am just saying that I think a good many people may have to vote openly because they feel there are other factors involved here, but I am speaking just to the factor of whether we get some constructive legislation in any of these fields or another. Mr. PUCINSKI. Would the gentleman yield? Mr. GOODELL. I would be glad to. Mr. PUCINSKI. It is my understanding that the chairman in the opening sessions said that we are going to hold these big hearings with the full committee to hear some of the larger organizations, some of the largest, the Secretary himself, and then we are going to decide on the 18th as to how to further proceed with this legislation. And I, for one, am very happy to have an opportunity to hear the Secretary of Health, Education, and Welfare. Mr. GOODELL. We have heard them, and I am, too. I agree. Mr. PUCINSKI. And I would like to hear some of the other witnesses. Now I am perfectly agreeable, and I am sure that we will find general agreement that after the full committee has had an opportunity to hear some of the broad discussion on the broad aspects of this bill, to then have this bill go into committees and take parts, different parts, different committees, so I do not know why we are arguing. Now if you are thinking about next week, we might join you on that, but I think that the chairman's Mr. GOODELL. My concern is not next week. My concern is the legislation. Mr. PUCINSKI (continuing). Determination to have the full committee hear the initial witnesses, I think, was a sound one. It gives all of us an opportunity to hear this testimony on this very important legislation. Mr. GOODELL. Well, I think you state-though we come to a very clear difference there you state the other side very clearly and effectively. It is my opinion that it is not a good idea to hear all these witnesses in a charade here for the major bill that nobody is going to vote for anyway, that we have got to divide this up, and the sooner we do it, the better chance we are going to have of getting some constructive legislation in some of these fields. Mr. PUCINSKI. You will do it in time. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Mr. Chairman, would the gentleman yield? Mr. GOODELL. Yes. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. It seems to me that Mr. Pucinski put his finger on part of the problem that we are discussing. I wish we were discussing it in executive session, but it does not seem to be possible. The opportunity to hear witnesses is all I am asking for, and the only way in my view that the full committee can legally hear witnesses is to have a quorum present. We had what I consider an absurd ruling yesterday by the Chair that 2 members out of a 31-man committee constitute a quorum of the full committee. I would hope that is not the case. I would like, in executive session, to discuss with other reasonable members of the committee the possibility of postponing hearing any witnesses next week, because next week does not provide an adequate opportunity to hear witnesses, and all I am saying is that there is no compulsion on this committee to make a spectacle of ourselves, to insult a witness as important as Commissioner Keppel. Nobody cared one iota what he was telling us, because of our concern about the way the committee was operating itself. There was no publicity about what he had to say, or Mr. GIBBONS. Would the gentleman yield? Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. I do not have the floor. Mr. GOODELL. Nobody seemed to care. I think a good many of us did care, and respected what Mr. Keppel said. Mr. GIBBONS. Mr. Chairman, I want to clear the record. I cared what he said, and I care what these other witnesses say, and I think most of the members of this committee care what the other witnesses say. Now, there are seven freshmen on this committee, and we have never heard this program before. I for one want to hear the whole thing, and I think that the American people want us to hear the whole thing. Now we can sort it out and take what we want, but we want to hear them, and I want to hear them. I resent what the gentleman said, that we did not care what the witness said yesterday. I thought the witness was excellent, he handled himself well, and I want to listen to the rest of them. Mr. GOODELL. I thought he was excellent and handled himself well. Mr. PERKINS. The gentlelady? Mrs. GREEN. Mr. Chairman, we do have witnesses. We have one witness this morning who has come here from the Pacific coast, and I think it is a terrible imposition to use this time in arguing about procedure. I hope that we can move on to the hearings very quickly, but also, in order to clarify one point that has already been made in regard to the procedure next week, may I read a letter which was signed by the Chairman? DEAR REPRESENTATIVE GREEN: As you know, it is planned that the full committee will begin 2 weeks of hearings Monday, February 4, 1963, on H.R. 3000, the National Education Improvement Act of 1963. In the event there is any discussion concerning full committee participation, I hereby assign this bill to a Joint Education Committee to be composed of the members of the General Subcommittee on Education, under the chairmanship of Representative Carl Perkins, and the Special Subcommittee on Education, of which you are the chairman, to proceed forthwith. With every good wish. Very truly yours, ADAM CLAYTON POWELL. It seems to me that there is no point in arguing any more on whether we have to have a quorum or whether we have two members, because if there is further discussion, then I would presume that as of tomorrow or next week, we go into the subcommittee. Therefore, could I ask that we have a vote? Mr. HOLLAND. I move the previous question. Mr. PERKINS. The previous question has been moved. The vote occurs on the substitution motion offered by the gentleman from New Jersey, Mr. Thompson. The clerk will call the roll. Dr. WOLFE. Mr. Powell? Mr. Perkins? Mr. PERKINS. Votes aye. Dr. WOLFE. Mr. Landrum? Mr. LANDRUM. Aye. Dr. WOLFE. Mrs. Green? Mrs. GREEN. Aye. Dr. WOLFE. Mr. Roosevelt? Mr. ROOSEVELT. Aye. Dr. WOLFE. Mr. Thompson? Mr. THOMPSON. Aye. Dr. WOLFE. Mr. Holland? Mr. HOLLAND. Aye. Dr. WOLFE. Mr. Dent? Mr. HOLLAND. I have his proxy. Votes Aye. Dr. WOLFE. Mr. Pucinski? Mr. PUCINSKI. Aye. Dr. WOLFE. Mr. Daniels? Mr. DANIELS. Aye. Dr. WOLFE. Mr. Brademas? Mr. BRADEMAS. Aye. Dr. WOLFE. Mr. O'Hara? Mr. O'HARA. Aye. Dr. WOLFE. Mr. Scott? Mr. Carey? Mr. CAREY. Aye. Dr. WOLFE. Mr. Hawkins? Mr. HAWKINS. Aye. Dr. WOLFE. Mr. Sickels? Mr. SICKLES. Aye. Dr. WOLFE. Mr. Gibbons? Mr. GIBBONS. Aye. Dr. WOLFE. Mr. Gill? Mr. GILL. Aye. Dr. WOLFE. Mr. Brown? Mr. BROWN. Aye. Dr. WOLFE. Mr. Frelinghuysen? Mr. AYRES. Aye. Dr. WOLFE. Mr. Griffin? Mr. GRIFFIN. Present. Dr. WOLFE. Mr. Quie? Mr. QUIE. Present. Dr. WOLFE. Mr. Goodell? Mr. GOODELL. No. Dr. WOLFE. Mr. Bruce? Mr. Ashbrook? Mr. ASHBROOK. No. Dr. WOLFE. Mr. Martin? Mr. MARTIN. No. Dr. WOLFE. Mr. Bell? Mr. BELL. No. Dr. WOLFE. Mr. Snyder? Mr. Findley? Mr. FINDLEY. No. Dr. WOLFE. Mr. Taft? Mr TAFT. Present. Dr. WOLFE. The vote, Mr. Chairman, is 18 aye's, 5 no's, and 4 present: 18 aye's and 5 no's. Mr. PERKINS. The substitute motion offered by the gentleman from New Jersey, Mr. Thompson, is adopted; so therefore, the committee will proceed as it has been proceeding, in accordance with the schedule presented to us by the Chairman, which runs to the 14th of Febru ary. Now I want to state this: It has been the purpose of this hearing to try to keep as many members here as possible so that the committee could be fully advised on the administration's comprehensive bill, but in the event we are unable to keep a quorum of the full committee present, I am serving notice now that the Chairman has assigned the bills to the subcommittees headed by myself and by Mrs. Green; so to constitute a quorum, it will only take two from each subcommittee. We hope that we do not have to proceed under that procedure, because we feel the legislation is so important that a quorum of the full committee will be present on all occasions. But if a quorum of the full committee is not present, commencing tomorrow, which we feel is reasonable notice, then we will proceed under the chairmanship of the two joint committees. 94173-63-14 Mr. PUCINSKI. Mr. Chairman, would the gentleman yield for a question? Mr. PERKINS. Yes. Mr. PUCINSKI. I wonder if the Chairman was aware at the time he set up this schedule that the leadership had agreed to next week's unofficial recess, and I am wondering if we should not, in deference to those who want to be away to discharge their responsibilities in their districts, we have an agreement of leadership here to have an unofficial recess next week, and will it hurt this cause tremendously if we set this whole thing up a week further? I mean, would we do any real violence to the program if we decided that instead of having hearings next week, in deference to our colleagues, that we did make it the following week? Mr. PERKINS. Let me make the following observation. The Chair will talk to the chairman, assuming that he is able to talk to the chairman of the full committee, and I will talk to Mr. Frelinghuysen, and I will talk to the gentleman from Illinois, but I would certainly at this time want to state that we want to proceed in accordance with the wishes of the full committee, and we have just voted on the substitute motion, and that is the way we will leave it at the present time. Mr. HOLLAND. Mr. Chairman, I call for regular order. Mr. PERKINS. Regular order. The witnesses will come forward and take their seats. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Mr. Chairman, off the record. (Discussion off the record.) Mr. PERKINS. The first thing I want to ascertain this morning is: Do any of the members on the full committee want to interrogate the Commissioner of Education any further? I think he had completed his testimony yesterday. Mr. FRELINGHUYSEN. Mr. Chairman, the gentleman from New York, Mr. Goodell, sat here very patiently for 24 hours and never got a chance to ask any questions. I am fairly sure he wants to be given the opportunity. Mr. PERKINS. Come forward, please, Mr. Keppel. STATEMENT OF FRANCIS KEPPEL, COMMISSIONER-DESIGNATE OF EDUCATION, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH, EDUCATION, AND WELFARE; ACCOMPANIED BY PETER P. MUIRHEAD, ASSISTANT COMMISSIONER OF EDUCATION, DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH, EDUCATION, AND WELFARE Resumed Mr. PERKINS. The Chair recognizes the gentleman from Illinois, Mr. Pucinski, for a question. Mr. PUCINSKI. Doctor, in this blue sheet digest of H.R. 3000, on page 2, down at the very bottom of that page, in title IV, strengthening elementary and secondary education. Mr. KEPPEL. Yes, sir. Mr. PUCINSKI. There is this language: Support for special projects to improve educational quality, particularly in disadvantaged rural and urban areas. Mr. KEPPEL. Yes, sir. |