Mr. BRYAN. Yes, sir.

Mr. QUIE. As a librarian, would you feel that there is any difficulty in determining what books or documents were used for sectarian instruction and which were not, or someone in HEW to determine whether they were used or were not? Would you expect they would have to be currently used, or had ever been used?

Mr. BRYAN. I think that this can be done. In fact, many public libraries do not buy books for sectarian religious instruction. Many institutions have been selecting books on this basis for some years.

Mr. QUIE. You mean in a public library, you would not be purchasing any books that were being used at that time, or had ever been used, for sectarian instruction?

Mr. BRYAN. Well, I should like to say public libraries generally do not buy what are known as catechetical materials for various religious faiths.

Mr. QUIE. Would you understand part D of title II to mean books limited to this nature, catechetical books?

Mr. BRYAN. I would say that the books referred to would be those required for the religious instruction of the particular faiths concerned.

Mr. QUIE. Yes; the courses that were being given at that particular time, rather than some previous time.

Mr. BRYAN. I had not thought of this as a problem. I think that this kind of matter can be distinguished.

Mr. QUIE. How is the judgment made? Would a list of books be printed for which Federal assistance would not be made available? Mr. BRYAN. Personally, I would hope not.

Mr. QUIE. Well, how do you work it now in the public libraries, where certain books are not permitted? Are these listed?

Mr. BRYAN. NO. This is a question of judgment, in book selection. Mr. QUIE. By the librarian, or the head of the library!

Mr. BRYAN. And staff, department heads, according to policy. Mr. QUIE. Would you expect this to be the case in the administration of this law? Would you expect somebody in the Health, Education, and Welfare Department Office of Education to be making that decision?

Mr. BRYAN. I might answer this a little, perhaps, by indirection, but most general laws are followed by rules, procedures, interpretations, that spell out in some detail. It would be my thought that perhaps the Office of Education in HEW would spell this out in more detail.

Mr. QUIE. I have noted that librarians get quite concerned when people tell them what kind of books they can put in the library; when State legislatures, especially, attempt to pass laws censoring certain kinds of books, librarians quickly come to the opposition of that kind of legislation. I was wondering if their was any concern on your part of having an organization outside of the institution as such make the determination for them what books they could or could not secure? Mr. BRYAN. I think that there needs to be a distinction drawn here. For example, as to book selection and the purchase of books, here we are referring to Federal money, but we are also thinking in terms of matching grants and of participation of either State and local money or private institutional money. This question does not refer to

the holdings and book selection policies of libraries as a whole, per se, but to the expenditure of money from a particular source.

Mr. QUIE. So, in this case, the institution could steer clear of it quite easily by purchasing no religious books of any nature with the Federal funds, but transferring some of the funds that it would have used for other books into the religious department of the library.

Mr. BRYAN. That would be correct. Do you want to comment? Mr. GREENAWAY. Mr. Chairman, may I suggest that under the National Defense Education Act, we have certain areas which the money is to be used for, and I would think that the regulations developed by the Department would in reasonably clear and broad terms say what money was not to be used for, and that librarians, having this, will then use their good judgment in steering clear of the purchase of those books with Federal funds.

Mr. QUIE. Very good. You are the first librarians that have come in, and I just wanted to find this out, because I know the concern librarians have with that type of censoring by anyone, and if there is any problem that any librarians bring up to you, I would appreciate finding out about it, because we can clear some of this up by the legislative colloquy on the floor, so that nothing will get out of line.

Mr. BRYAN. May I add one more thing, Mr. Chairman, on this subject?

None of the Federal or State programs of assistance to libraries, up to this time, have indicated specifically what types of books should or should not be bought with Federal money. The book selection is purely a local board matter.

Mr. QUIE. But this will be the first time, I imagine, that Federal money is made available for libraries in private institutions; would it not?

Mr. GREENAWAY. Mr. Chairman, under the Library Services Act, Federal funds have been used for the purchase of books, and we have run into no problems there that I am aware of.

Mr. QUIE. OK, thank you.

Mr. DANIELS. Mr. Sickles.

Mr. SICKLES. I have no questions, Mr. Chairman.
Mr. DANIELS. Mr. Brown.

Mr. BROWN. No questions.
Mr. DANIELS. Mr. Hawkins.

Mr. HAWKINS. No questions.

Mr. DANIELS. The Chair would like to ask one question of the gentlemen. Referring to the question asked by Mr. Gill about establishing a regional library in a State, and purely on a State basis, for use by various municipalities; as to certain needs of that particular area, do you think that such a program could be developed in the States, with the Federal funds?

Mr. GREENAWAY. Mr. Chairman, this is already being done in Massachusetts. Regional libraries have been set up in the eastern part of the State, in the central part of the State, in western part of the State.

In New York, again districts have been developed, and they are opearting under a district plan. In Pennsylvania, we have 30 district libraries now designated as centers where collections and staff will be developed, so that those materials can specifically be used by and loaned to and services given the local communities within any one of these 30 districts, so that this entirely possible.

Mr. DANIELS. Well, would not that serve to alleviate the congestion as well as the expense and cost that would be involved by building individual units?

Mr. GREENAWAY. We think to put it in another way that there are a billion dollars in excess in this kind of a program of building individual units and that regional planning will save a great expenditure of money. Now, one of the difficulties comes when your district libraries are developed close to the border of another State, and where the trading area, for example, brings people in from other States. They come in and use the libraries, and no public library that I know of stops anyone at the door and asks the question, "Where do you live, and where do you pay your taxes?"

Over the years, since the time public libraries have been established, we have, I think, as a profession been eager to broaden the horizons of any individual.

Mr. DANIELS. Fine.

Mr. BRYAN. In New Jersey, we are now making studies of the possibility of certain libraries in certain sections or for certain counties serving as a reference and regional resource to serve part of the area. This does not, for example, view just one reference and research library in the northern New Jersey metropolitan area. There might be one in Hudson County, there might be one in Essex, there might be one in Bergen, but a graduated situation of library opportunities, whereby if a person does not find what he wants in one library, he is free to go to the next higher library as a matter of right, not as a matter of privilege.

Mr. DANIELS. It would appear to the Chair that such a program would try to meet the needs of the future.

Mr. GREENAWAY. Mr. Chairman, there is one other example which I think is a very interesting one.

At one time, I was director of the Enoch Pratt Free Library in Baltimore, and we worked out a State program there, and developed it. Today, the State has contracted with the Enoch Pratt Library, which is the largest library in the entire State of Maryland, to supply nonfiction books from its collection to the local libraries throughout the State to save them the cost of buying materials that perhaps would not be used sufficiently to warrant their purchase locally.

Mr. DANIELS. The Chair would like to thank both of you gentlemen for coming here today to give us your views on this very important

matter.

Mr. BRYAN. Thank you for hearing us, sir.

Mr. GREENAWAY. Thank you very much.

Mr. DANIELS. Mrs. Mary Tingloff, and is Dr. Luke here?
Will you both step forward?

STATEMENTS OF DR. ROBERT A. LUKE, DIRECTOR OF THE DIVISION OF ADULT EDUCATION SERVICE OF THE NATIONAL EDUCATION ASSOCIATION AND EXECUTIVE SECRETARY OF THE NATIONAL ASSOCIATION OF PUBLIC SCHOOL ADULT EDUCATORS, WASHINGTON, D.C.; AND MRS. MARY TINGLOFF, PRESIDENT OF THE LOS ANGELES BOARD OF EDUCATION

Mr. DANIELS. I understand, Mrs. Tingloff, you are from the State of California. I would like to call upon my colleague, Mr. Hawkins, to introduce the witness to the committee.

Mrs. TINGLOFF. Thank you.

Mr. HAWKINS. Mr. Chairman and members of the committee, it is an unusual pleasure. I didn't expect this.

I think it is obvious that anyone who travels 3,000 miles across the country into this type of weather from beautiful California is certainly a dedicated person. I doubt if Mrs. Tingloff is going to speak for the board of education.

I know that she should be introduced as president of the board, and I think that it has been through her very excellent efforts and dynamic leadership that the board has become, I think, certainly one with preeminence in the field of education, and I am quite sure that Mr. Bell and Mr. Brown will join me in being present here to welcome Mrs. Tingloff, and to introduce her in the committee as one of our very excellent persons in the field of education, and certainly a friend of all of us.

Mrs. TINGLOFF. Thank you, Mr. Hawkins.

Mr. DANIELS. I would also like the record, at this time, to show that seated in the audience is Mr. Smith, the assistant superintendent of schools.

Mr. SMITH. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Mr. DANIELS. You may proceed, Mrs. Tingloff.

Mrs. TINGLOFF. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I am speaking, of course, for myself as president of the board of education in Los Angeles, and not for the board, but with a great interest in this bill, H.R. 3000. I speak to the whole bill as well as to title VI, in which I am keenly interested, but the whole bill is of great importance to us, who sit for the board of education in this country; as you probably know, we are the second largest school district in the United States, and we do have 720,000 children, when I left Los Angeles, in our school population.

We have a tremendous building program, we have not only our 430 some elementary schools, but over a hundred secondary schools, and 7 junior colleges, and 27 adult schools under Mr. Smith's supervision. We have increasing problems particularly with financial matters in the city of Los Angeles, as every other school district is feeling this particular year, and we have 28,000 new students who enter our

school district, as a growth pattern, which has been going on for the last few years, and we expect it to continue even by the most conservative estimates up through 1970.

We are looking, of course, to the State in Sacramento, this year, for increased apportionment, but our problems are not going to be met unless we do have additional aid. We are up against a tax ceiling in Los Angeles now, and have not been able to do some of the programs at the elementary or secondary level that we were hoping to do in the things in the curricula, the library materials that are needed, the helps to those people who are expected to drop out.

In the adult program, we are facing, I think, a very serious situation, particularly as it affects the young people who are dropping out before they have reached their high school diploma, and then, of course, the numbers of people who need to be retrained because of automation, the people who are coming back between the ages of 30 and 40 years to seek not only an elementary certificate, but their high school diploma.

They need to be retrained again for a new job, so that they are not landing on our relief rolls, but are becoming a kind of person who can create a product that will increase our economy.

These are some of the problems that we face in Los Angeles, and they are increasing daily. We have an older age population in Los Angeles, and in the State of California, which I think also makes for a problem for educators, for boards of education to know what to do with this increasing leisure time, the number of retired people that come and live with us.

We are, you know, growing at a very rapid pace in California. We, I think, are trying to meet our needs of financing in our own school district. The State of California itself has already given or does give by State apportionment about $720 million to its school districts.

It has another $400 million which it gives also to higher education. We have a State school construction program under which we are now operating, $160 million, and a recently passed bond issue in which we will have another $200 million for school construction at all levels. In response to the question regarding libraries, I believe H.R. 3000 would only partially meet our needs since we are interested in school libraries as well as public libraries. We are starting a coordinated program in our library reserves in California, believing that school libraries are very dependent upon public libraries, and there must be a kind of relationship between them. Our public librarians are always telling us in the school district that their libraries are flooded with the young people who come in to use them.

I think I would prefer to answer questions, Mr. Chairman. I know you are pressed for time, and if I have not made one of the points clear, I should like to do so at your request.

Mr. DANIELS. I think you have made it very, very clear what this means in your particular communities.

Mr. Perkins?

Mr. PERKINS. Mrs. Tingloff, I certainly wish to compliment you and your city's school superintendent in Los Angeles for the great work you have done in education, and your great interest in education, and I personally appreciate your testimony today as I did a year ago on the Adult Basic Education Act.