will help, a study to do some real research into the problem. This study will give us facts upon which we can pass more intelligently in another year. In the meantime, you have come up with a sensible student assistance program. Naturally, I am pleased that you have endorsed the technical education bill which several of us, Republicans and Democrats, jointly in a bipartisan fashion recommended in the last Congress. I want to express also my concern, as Mrs. Green has indicated and, I think, Mr. Frelinghuysen has also indicated, about your confining of your general aid program, to colleges for the construction of academic facilities, to loans alone. I understand you have some problems, but I think the point that Mrs. Green made ought to be worth more consideration, namely, that many States have constitutional limitations that would, in effect, prevent them from taking advantage of your program. Now, Mr. Secretary, one question I would like to put to you is this: Can you tell us anything about the relationship of your fellowship programs in this education bill to fellowship programs under the National Science Foundation and NASA? We really don't have the full picture of what the administration wants in fellowships simply by looking at your bill. Mr. CELEBREZZE. I will refer that to Mr. Cohen. He has the figures on it. Mr. COHEN. Mr. Brademas, the administration is recommending as well some increases in the fellowship programs in the National Science Foundation. The 1963 appropriation for fellowships was $21.5 million in 1963, and the President's budget for 1964 does include $36 million for fellowships in addition to what we have recommended here for fellowships. I don't have the NASA figures with me, but I must say that in reply to your question, the comment Mrs. Green made, we feel that there is a great deal of unused capacity in American graduate schools that can be used to expand the fellowship program. I think the 1,500 that are in the present National Defense Education Act for expansion was fine, but our experience over the years shows that there are lots of schools with unused capacity, and we feel therefore that the extra 8,500 that we have recommended can be wisely used at this time. Mrs. GREEN. Would the gentleman yield? Mr. BRADEMAS. I will be glad to. Mrs. GREEN. I think the question is not the space in the graduate schools but the people with a baccalaureate degree. We are almost to the place where we do not have enough applicants. There are actually advertisements in magazines wanting people to apply for a fellowship. Have you considered that aspect of it? Not the rooms in the graduate school but the students who have the baccalaureate degree and would go on. Mr. COHEN. Well, Mrs. Green, my own experience when I was teaching in an institution of higher education is that there are still a great many capable young men and women who should go on to graduate work, who have either not been encouraged to do so or have not had the financial help to do so. Mrs. GREEN. Wasn't there a conference at the University of Michigan or somewhere in the Midwest in the last month or 6 weeks where it was said we were scraping the bottom of the barrel in people for applying for fellowship programs, and that this was an alarming situation? Mr. COHEN. But, at the same time, we are increasing college enrollment over 320,000 a year, and if you want to get prepared for this tremendous increase in the next few years we think it is proper and wise to expand the fellowship program. The CHAIRMAN. The time of the gentleman has expired. Mr. GOODELL. Mr. Secretary, throughout this bill it is almost impossible to determine costs over the period of life of each program, of 24 programs that are recommended. You have given us a total figure of about $5.3 billion for the life of each of these programs. I would appreciate having a breakdown of that cost because as I went over this and broke it down, multiplying the first-year cost by the total period that you are recommending for the program, I came up with quite a different figure, and I would assume this is a minimum cost since the first-year cost of any program is normally quite a bit less than the second- or third-year cost as we move into it. Now some of these programs, you have given a second- or third-year cost, but most of them you have not. You have left it just with the first-year cost. I think the entire committee would appreciate having a breakdown of your estimates as to the cost, year by year, of each of these programs which you anticipate. I would like to ask unanimous consent to put in the record at this point the breakdown which I come up with, in all fairness, of the figures. They come to $6.7 billion over the period that you have recommended. The CHAIRMAN. Without objection, so ordered. |