General HAINS. A secession of Panama never entered my mind. Senator HOPKINS. Mr. Chairman, I do not like to interrupt the Senator; but I can not see where that line of investigation is relevant. That is a closed incident, and I do not know why the time of the committee should be taken up with it. If it is a matter that the Senator himself wants information about it ought to be taken up at some time outside of the committee, it seems to me.

Senator MORGAN. As to the closed incident, as long as there is a heart in America that appreciates the honor of this country, that incident will never be closed from investigation and from free speech. I am not undertaking to get into the matter of secession, however; I made that remark humorously to the General, the idea being that they had in view at that time the acquisition of the property there by purchase or by some other method. I suppose that really no other method was contemplated; particularly not the method of capturing it from Colombia.

Senator HOPKINS. Well, Mr. Chairman, I for one protest against this line of examining the witnesses, because it is not pertinent to anything that we have before us as a committee; and as a legal proposition it is a closed incident.

Senator MORGAN. I was trying to apologize.

Senator HOPKINS. As a matter of historical reminiscence, it may be of interest to people that indulge in that, but for committee purposes it is not.

Senator MORGAN. I was trying to apologize, Mr. Chairman, for having, perhaps thoughtlessly, intruded upon the feelings of my friend here about this matter. But I will let that pass.

The CHAIRMAN. You may proceed, Senator, and we will see how we get along.

Senator MORGAN. I want to know whether you were invited to go to Paris by the Panama Canal Company or by any agent or person connected with it?

General HAINS. I do not think I was invited. I think I just made up my mind that I was going over there.

Senator MORGAN. But you went in a body?

General HAINS. Yes; we went in a body.

Senator MORGAN. There was some understanding, I suppose, that when you got there you would have an opportunity of investigating the affairs of the Panama Canal Company?

General HAINS. Oh, I think the authorities there had been notified that we were coming.

Senator MORGAN. How did that all come about? Who did it, and how was it done? How did it ever happen that there was any communication between you and the authorities in France about this United States Commission going over there to make an examination of this subject? Who brought it about, and how did it happen?

General HAINS. I do not know.

Senator MORGAN. Do you remember any communication from the director-general of the Panama Canal Company to the American Isthmian Canal Commission to go to Paris to examine into the situation there before you made an examination on the Isthmus?

General HAINS. I do not remember, but I think it is quite likely we had an invitation. I do not know. I can not say, now.

Senator MORGAN. Did you meet any agent of that canal company that was active and hospitable and influential and friendly and kind about getting these communications?

General HAINS. Oh, we had the chief engineer, we had the director, and-well, they were the two principal ones, and they had access to all the records, and they gave us all the information they could about it. Senator MORGAN. Was there any American that was active in this business in getting you to go over there and providing hospitality, etc. General HAINS. No, sir.

Senator MORGAN. No one at all?

General HAINS. Not that I know of. No, sir; I made up my mind that I was not going to report on that plan or on that route until 1 had gone to Paris and examined the records.

Senator MORGAN. That was before you had ever been on the Isthmus? General HAINS. Oh, no, no; I had been on the Isthmus before, on a previous commission."

Senator MORGAN. A previous commission, yes; but I am asking whether it was before the Board ever went there?

General HAINS. That was before the Board went there.

Senator MORGAN. Now, the Walker Canal Commission, before they ever went to the Isthmus at all, went to Paris?

General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. And made an investigation there. What did they go there for?

General HAINS. To look at the maps, to see what the Frenchmen had in the way of records, papers, and all kinds of things. Then we wanted also-that was not the only object we had in going to Europe. We did not confine ourselves to a visit to Paris. We went and visited all the big canals there. We went to the Kiel canal, the Amsterdam canal, the Manchester Canal. All those were taken in in our examination. We wanted to get information.

Senator MORGAN. But you had distinctly in view the question whether or not you would ever recommend a canal at Panama? You had that distinctly in view, and you went to examine the Panama scheme?

General HAINS. We wanted to find out everything about it.

Senator MORGAN. Yes; and you had that proposition in view, that there was an expectation or a prospect that you would be authorized or required to recommend the Panama scheme to the United States Government? You had that all in view before you went there?

General HAINS. That there was a possibility that we might recommend the Panama route; yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. How did you get that idea about it; from discussions with people, or just your own suggestions?

General HAINS. Why, the law required us.

Senator MORGAN. The law required you to go to Paris?

General HAINS. No, sir; it did not require us to go to Paris. It required us to report as to the most feasible and practicable route for a canal across the Isthmus.

Senator MORGAN. That was because you were engineers, and, I suppose, because the Congress of the United States desired to know what American engineers had to say about this American route; not about the situation in Paris. I do not remember that anything of that sort

occurred. Now, General, did you not go there because you knew that propositions were to be made for the transfer of that canal to the United States?

General HAINS. For that alone?

Senator MORGAN. I did not say "alone." Was that one of the reasons you went there because you knew that propositions were to be made for the transfer of that canal to the United States?

General HAINS. I can answer that question in this way that I did go there with an idea in my mind that possibly there might be a transfer of that property to the United States.

Senator MORGAN. Was that just a remote imagination of yours, or was it founded upon facts that you knew of in regard to a transaction of the kind?

General HAINS. It was founded on the fact that we were going to report as to which was the best route, because there were other routes besides Panama and Nicaragua, and we wanted to find out all about it; and we wanted to see the Kiel Canal, the Amsterdam Canal, and the Manchester Canal, and not alone to go to Paris.

Senator MORGAN. You did not have to go to Paris to see either the Kiel Canal or the Amsterdam Canal or any other canal?

General HAINS. No; but we

Senator MORGAN. You went there to get information in regard to the Panama route?

General HAINS. Yes; we went there to get information in regard to the Panama route.

Senator MORGAN. And before the Commission had ever been to Panama?

General HAINS. Before the Commission as a body had ever been to Panama.

Senator MORGAN. I am trying to find out if I can, General, whether there was not at that time some proposition pending that would be agreeable to the French Government and agreeable to the Panama Canal Company by which the property was to be Americanized, or taken over by the United States.

General HAINS. Oh, I have seen that matter discussed in the papers, but I do not think that that was considered in the Commission. I do not remember of its being considered.

Senator MORGAN. Why did you not go to Colombia and ask her if she was willing that you should take the job off of the hands of the Panama Canal. Company?

General HAINS. I do not know.

Senator MORGAN. That would have been a very nice thing to do, would it not a very proper thing?

Senator HOPKINS. They had no authority for it, did they?
General HAINS. I do not know about that, either, Senator.

Senator MORGAN. You never thought about that. You knew that Colombia owned Panama at that time, did you not?

the concessions for the canal?

She had granted

General HAINS. I knew that the State of Panama was a part of the Republic of Colombia; yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. And that Colombia had granted the concessions to the French Company?

General HAINS. Yes, sir; I knew that.

Senator MORGAN. And you knew that if you took it over at all it would be necessary to see Colombia about it, at some time or other, and in some fashion or other?

General HAINS. It would have been necessary to have made some arrangement with Colombia.

Senator HOPKINS. General, the facts were known to all the American people, were they not, just as well as to the Commission? General HAINS. I think so. I think they were known to everybody. Senator MORGAN. I must protest that I did not know them. Senator HOPKINS. You may be an exception, then.

Senator MORGAN. I hardly think I am by many millions.

The CHAIRMAN. Senator, I did not know that there was anything in connection with that project down there that you were not informed about.

Senator HOPKINS. The general impression in this country is that he knows as much about it as anybody.

Senator MORGAN. I am in just the same situation as this committee is to-day, with a lot of suspicions in their minds and not any satisfactory information or the possibility, probably, of ever digging into it. That is the situation I am in.

Senator TALIAFERRO. General, when the Commission went to Paris, had a proposition been made to sell that French property to this Government?

General HAINS. I do not think it had, sir. I do not think it had been made by anybody. In fact, I am quite sure that it had not been. Senator MORGAN. Did you know at that time of any American that had a right derived from the Panama Canal Company to sell that property to the United States, or to sell it to any syndicate that might be formed here?

General HAINS. No, sir; I did not.

Senator MORGAN. You did not hear of it?

General HAINS. No, sir.

Senator MORGAN. I am afraid they did not have confidence in you, General, such as I have. They were afraid to trust you. [Laughter.] However, you went there, and you were entertained there by the Frenchmen?

General HAINS. The Frenchmen gave us a dinner, and we gave them a dinner. We had that much entertainment, and no more.

Senator MORGAN. I am glad you had that much. Then you came back, and then you went afterwards to the Isthmus of Panama. General HAINS. Oh, no: I did not come back.

Senator MORGAN. You went from there to the Isthmus?

General HAINS. Oh, to Panama-yes; I thought you meant to the other canals.

Senator MORGAN. No; you came back to New York, and then went down to Panama?

General HAINS. And then in December, I think it was, we went down to Panama.

Senator MORGAN. About what time did you get back from Paris, if you remember?

General HAINS. Let me see. I think we were over there altogether about six weeks.

Senator MORGAN. In Paris?

General HAINS. No, sir; we were between two and three weeks, I think, in Paris, and the remainder of the time was taken up in going to Kiel and examining the Kiel Canal, the Amsterdam Canal, and the Manchester Canal.

Senator MORGAN. Then, how long was it before you got down to the Isthmus again?

General HAINS. We left here, I think, to go to Paris about the latter part of July or the first of August, and we went to Panama about December.

Senator MORGAN. Yes, in December; and you spent about thirty or thirty-one days there?

General HAINS. No; we spent about three months there.

Senator MORGAN. At Panama?

General HAINS. On the Isthmus.

No; we did not stay at Panama

all the time. We went to Nicaragua first.

Senator MORGAN. I am not talking about Nicaragua; I am talking about what time you spent at Panama.

General HAINS. You asked me what time we left New York.
Senator MORGAN. Yes.

General HAINS. When we went south there we did not go to Panama alone; we went to these other places.

Senator MORGAN. I know; you went to Nicaragua first?

General HAINS. Yes.

Senator MORGAN. What I wanted to get at is when you arrived at Panama, as near the date as practicable, and how long you staid there.

General HAINS. I think we were on the Panama Isthmus something like about three weeks.

Senator MORGAN. That is my calculation; I think it is a little more than that. I think it was about thirty days.

General HAINS. I think perhaps it was. I do not remember exactly,

but it was somewhere about that time.

Senator MORGAN. Now, during that time, after your arrival from Paris in New York and before you went down to Nicaragua and Panama, this subject of the taking over of the Panama Canal was pul cly discussed in the newspapers, was it not?

General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. There got to be quite rife, active inquiry about taking it over?

General HAINS. I do not remember much about that, Senator. know, just as a general fact, that the question was for us to report on the most feasible and practicable route, and Nicaragua and Panama were the two prominent ones. Then there were some others also.

Senator MORGAN. Did you meet Buneau-Varilla while you were in Paris?

General HAINS. No, sir; I never saw Buneau-Varilla until, I think, about the latter part of 1901, over here.

Senator MORGAN. Did you meet General Abbot over there?
General HAINS. Yes, sir.

Senator MORGAN. What was he doing there?

General HAINS. He at that time was a member of the technical commission of the French company.

Senator MORGAN. And you conferred with him about the canal situation, of course?