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MISCELLANEOUS DISCUSSIONS.

TIME OF MEETING.

MR. HODGMAN: There doesn't seem to be anything special before the meeting just now, and I would like to get the opinion of the members present, in regard to the time of our meeting. Would it not be a good plan instead of having it the third week in January, to have it the week in which New Years comes? It would not then conflict with the meetings of any of the other surveyors' associations. Last year, if I recollect aright, Michigan, Indiana and Ohio surveyors met at the same date. Mr. Holmes, of Batavia, wrote me to know why we did not arrange our meetings so that he and other instrument makers could attend all the meetings. This year only Michigan and Ohio are in session at the same date.

Another thing is that the Michigan railway association refuses any longer to give this Society any reduced rates except upon terms which it is impossible for us to comply with. But they give reduced rates to everybody during the holidays, and if we should have our convention at that time we could have the benefit of them.

MR. APPLETON: I should be very sorry to see the meetings of the convention so near New Years. How long do these holiday rates extend?

MR. HODGMAN: I don't know, but I guess not over four to six days.

MR. APPLETON: I don't think the attendance would be apt to be any larger-take it the same week New Years is in. Now New Years may come on Tuesday or Wednesday, and I am sure I should feel bound to be at home on New Years, and I think there are others who feel just the same, and that would stop attendance, and I should be very sorry to see it changed to the same week New Years comes, unless New Years should come Saturday or Monday. The question is, however, whether the holiday rates extend so far.

MR. TODD: There is one reason why I should be sorry to see our meeting between Christmas and New Years-because every other year, we are in session at the State capitol and I would like to be there when the legislature is in session. But it may be for the profit of our Society to meet at the time the legislature is in session-we may have something we want to bring before our members, and if we are in session, members who being acquainted with the members from our districts, may possibly bring a force to bear that we could not otherwise.

EXCURSIONS.

PRESIDENT: The matter immediately before you is the excursions. We meet here at two o'clock in this room, when you can take your choice of six different excursions, with the proviso which I will add at the conclusion of my remarks: To the Soldiers' Home, conducted by Dorr Skeels. Excursion to Michigan Masonic Home, F. E. Skeels. Excursion to Grand Rapids Brick Company's grounds, Mr.

Ames.

Visit to the furniture factories, conducted by Mr. Christ. Visit to Street Railway Co.'s electric power house, Mr. Owen.

Inspection of the pavements, and visit to points of interest in the city; the city engineer, Mr. Collar, will be conductor in charge.

There will be an opportunity to inspect the City Railway Company's electric power house: Either one of the first three excursions may be combined with this visit-Soldiers' Home, Masonic Home, Brick Company's grounds-either one of these three may be taken in connection with the visit to the electric power house.

MR. APPLETON: There will be no time, I understand Mr. President, to see anything else, if you take either of these two this afternoon.

PRESIDENT: You must make a choice in the list. I have given you a limit of the choice as well as I am able.

MR. SKEELS: The local committee has seen fit to inflict on the members of this organization something in the shape of a

souvenir, an album with views about the city. They are brought in at this time because some of the members cannot stay with us any longer, and we wish every person connected with the society or with engineering in any way, to appropriate one of these to himself, whether he be visitor or member, presented with the compliments of the city of Grand Rapids. The board of trade has entered into the scheme with us, and present you with copies of their pamphlet.

MR. AMES: I am informed that the Alabastine Company would like to show their works while we are at the Brick Company's works; and also, that in order to combine, as the President mentioned, the first three excursions with the last, it will be necessary to take in some one of the first ones, and we can visit the electric power house when we come back.

PRESIDENT: The presentation of these souvenirs and these publications from the board of trade, will undoubtedly be gratefully received by the members. I have no doubt they will prove not only a sentimental souvenir of Grand Rapids, but a very practical, useful one in some respects, and I would say to the gentlemen who have been so kind as to provide these things for us, that we thank you heartily for them.

AFTER THE EXCURSION.

THE PRESIDENT: One matter which I have neglected, I wish to call your attention to, and beg pardon. I see upon the table here a few books. Here is one, "Notes on Rankine's Civil Engineering,” and if any of you think you can read Rankine without notes, you will think differently before you get through. This is one of those books of the utmost practical benefit.

And while I do not wish any man any harm, I wish Prof. Greene was not here, so I could tell you how good a book that is.

Here is a new edition of Mr. Hodgman's book on "Land Surveying" which as you know I have said so many times, is absolutely unique of its kind.

Here is another on "Separate System of Sewerage" by our member, Mr. Pierson, fully as good as the other two, If you want good books, there are three.

There are quite a lot of photographs and matter of that kind for your examination, in which I feel sure you will be interested.

There may be some who have not been here before, and I will say that there are numbers of copies of "The Compass" with which you may supply yourselves and a book, supplied by the Grand Rapids board of trade, views of this city, of which you may have copies as far as they go.

I hope also that you all had as good a time this afternoon as I did, and as much better as you could appreciate. I think we are under many obligations to the local committee and to the engineers of this city, for the exceeding pains and care they have taken in endeavoring to make our stay not only pleasant, but extremely profitable. I have heard more than one person say that they had stored up thoughts and suggestions and ideas and information generally, the whole afternoon through, and I wish it could be conveyed to Mr. Chapman, how fully we appreciate his kindness in lecturing to us by the hour, in giving us information and showing us about the electric light plant. I assure you gentlemen, and I assure him through the local committee, that it is appreciated especially by those of us who have much talking to do, and if he was a little thoughtless about it, he will appreciate it by morning, that he has done a hard day's work.

LEGISLATION.

The Secretary presented and read a letter from W. R. Coats desiring the Society to take steps towards securing the passage of a law requiring hydraulic engineers to pass an examination and receive a certificate of qualification before being permitted to practice in the State:

MR. TODD: There is a matter I would like to speak of as it has been brought up by the communication from Mr. Coats, in regard to the Society taking some action in licensing engineers, municipal and hydraulic. I think there is a crying need that the county surveyor be a licensed man. If there is any man that is subject to wire pullers, it is the county surveyor, and I think if there is any man that may be placed in a position of

responsibility without any consideration of his efficiency whatever, it is the man that is elected county surveyor. We have attempted some legislation in this matter and by the rather discourteous action of the members of the legislature, it was set at naught. I trust some action may be taken in this matter as all of us acquainted with the facts in question, know the importance of having a competent man in that place and know of the frequent incompetency of the incumbents.

MR. HODGMAN: This is a matter in which surveyors and civil engineers all over the country are interested and a line in which many of them have been working for years. I have been written to on the subject by parties in California, Missouri Arkansas, Illinois, and other states, all having the same end in view. They all meet with about the same kind of success so far as I can learn. Nearly every surveyors' association has started out as we did by going through the performance of preparing bills which they have asked their legislatures to enact into laws. But the legislatures have not done it. The bill that we presented to the legislature was treated with great contempt by the committee to whom it was referred and the most galling thing to me about it was that the report of the committee was written by its chairmam-a county surveyor, and anything but a competent one at that to my personal knowledge. The result of it was that we went to work as a society with the principal aim to improve ourselves and to improve the profession. We have done good work in that line. Our work has made better surveyors and better engineers not only all over our State, but all over the United States. Our work has made itself felt all over the United States and Canada and because of what we have done the average county surveyor the country over is a great deal better man than he was before we began our work. And we are not only making better surveyors but we are making better lawyers too. At the same time I confess I do not see any great object in trying to pass laws for licensing surveyors and engineers or any great prospect of it either.

PRESIDENT: I am of the opinion that until the county surveyor has the licensing of the lawyer, it won't be any use to

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