Senator KNOX. But this Government was not bound to adopt the views of that Commission; and if the French company chose to sell upon the tentative view of the Commission and accept pay for a less amount of excavation, this Government is not acting in bad faith in rejecting that Commission's view and building upon some other theory, even though it would involve the use of that excavation for which they did not receive compensation. Colonel ERNST. I think that we, in equity, should pay them something more. Senator KNOX. The logic of your suggestion is that if we do go on and build a sea-level canal we still should pay them some more money? Colonel ERNST. Yes, sir. Senator KNOX. I have no doubt they would agree to that, but I would not. (Laughter.) Senator MORGAN. How far was that Bohio dam from the Gatun dam? How many miles. Colonel ERNST. About 7 miles. Senator MORGAN. At the time that you recommended the dam at Bohio at an 85-foot elevation, and made estimates of the cost of construction and the time of construction, etc., it was understood that that was recommended as a plan of construction, was it not? Colonel ERNST. Yes, sir. Senator MORGAN. And the only plan that they did recommend? Colonel ERNST. Yes, sir. Senator MORGAN. At that time was any test made or had any test been made of the site that is proposed by the minority for the dam at Gatun? Colonel ERNST. There had been some; yes. Senator MORGAN. Why were not those tests prosecuted at that time to ascertain whether the dam that is now proposed by the minority was feasible? Colonel ERNST. It was believed by the majority of that Commission that the Gatun site was not available. Senator MORGAN. You have changed your opinion since that time? Colonel ERNST. Yes, sir. Senator MORGAN. You believe that the Gatun site was available? Colonel ERNST. Yes, sir. Senator MORGAN. And you have changed that opinion? Colonel ERNST. Yes; but not for the reason that I could not build that dam. I have changed my opinion. Senator MORGAN. But not for that reason? Colonel ERNST. No, sir. Senator MORGAN. Mr. Wallace's borings carry the depth down to rock below sea level, 40 feet farther down than you carried them? Colonel ERNST. Yes, sir. Senator MORGAN. Would not that interrupt your conclusions and the satisfaction you would have in relying upon them in regard to building a dam at Bohio? Colonel ERNST. No, sir. Senator MORGAN. On what plan would you build a dam at Bohio as it has now been revealed? Colonel ERNST. There are various methods, Senator, of tightening up that subfoundation. I think probably the most simple and economical form would be to pump down liquid cement and turn that gravel into a concrete in situ. Senator MORGAN. Has any great dam been built on that principle? Colonel ERNST. Oh, yes, sir. They have done that on the Nile; not to such depths as that, but they have done it to a depth of 40 or 50 feet. Senator MORGAN. They have done it to a depth of 40 or 50 feet; but they have got a granite foundation under the depth of the Assuan dam? Colonel ERNST. Yes; but it is not that dam that I am referring to. It is the Assiut dam where they have done what I speak of. That dam that you speak of is all masonry, entirely built on a rock foundation. Senator MORGAN. You still adhere to the belief that it is possible to build a permanent dam at Bohio? Colonel ERNST. Yes, sir; I do. Senator MORGAN. If that is possible, is not Bohio a better site than Gatun? Colonel ERNST. No; I do not think it is. Senator MORGAN. With a ridge coming in from each side and the spillway at Gigante? Colonel ERNST. There is where the trouble about foundation comes in-about the length of the locks. We planned locks 740 feet long. Now the proposition is to build them 900 feet long. Senator MORGAN. Is not the ground at Bohio sufficient for a 900-foot lock? Colonel ERNST. No, sir. Senator MORGAN. The ridge is not wide enough? Colonel ERNST. No, sir. Senator MORGAN. If we still found that a 750-foot lock was all that we needed, Bohio would still be, I suppose, the best location? Colonel ERNST. I am not prepared to say that exactly. I like this lake navigation. It might possibly be still a better location, but I am rather inclined to think the Gatun location is the better one, because it gives more lake navigation. Senator MORGAN. If you can get the lake navigation and maintain it, probably it is so; but are there no difficulties about constructing that dam at Gatun that you would like to avoid? Colonel ERNST. It is a very big thing. No, sir; I do not think there are any difficulties that need trouble us. Senator MORGAN. There is a gulch there 280 and odd feet deep; I forget exactly the depth Senator KITTREDGE. Two hundred and fifty-eight feet, as far as they have gone. Senator MORGAN. Yes; 258 feet deep as far as they have bored down into that sugar-loaf gulch; and that is filled up, we will assume, and we have a right to assume it on the testimony, with permeable material; and then, opposite to that, on the same axis of the dam, there is another gulch that is about-how many feet deep is that other large, wide gulch? 200 feet? Senator DRYDEN. Two hundred and four feet, I think. Senator KITTREDGE. Yes; 204 feet. Senator MORGAN. And that is filled up with permeable material. The indurated rock or clay which formerly filled these gulches, or which is supposed to have formerly filled them, has been washed out and left an island in there. The dam, however, stretches right across both of them and across the island. Now is it, to your mind, any safer to build that great dam across these two gulches than it would be to build a dam across the same permeable material at Bohio? Colonel ERNST. Oh, I do not think it is any safer; no, sir. The material which you speak of as permeable is only a small portion at the bottom; that is, that very loose material, the lower 50 feet of it. The upper 200 feet is practically impermeable; it is finer material. I am speaking now of the Gatun site. We have not found any material down there at all as coarse as some of that found at Bohio. Senator MORGAN. They found wood there, did they not? Senator MORGAN. Of course that is coarse material, and permeable, too? Colonel ERNST. Yes; I meant gravel. Senator KITTREDGE. May I ask a question here, Senator? Senator MORGAN. Certainly. Senator KITTREDGE. Colonel Ernst, you testified before this committee four or five years ago, did you not? Colonel ERNST. Yes, sir. Senator KITTREDGE. Upon the question of the foundation for the Bohio dam? Colonel ERNST. Yes, sir. Senator KITTREDGE. I read from page 676 of that testimony a question by the Chairman, Senator Morgan, at that time, referring to the pressure of the 85 or 90 foot head of water. He asked [reading]: "The CHAIRMAN. That would be a tremendous pressure to put beneath a clay dam with material that is pervious to water? "Colonel ERNST. Oh, yes. "The CHAIRMAN. It would be a very dangerous one, too. "Colonel ERNST. Yes; unless you make that foundation tight, it is a dangerous one." Senator MORGAN. That is the very point I had in mind, and I want to know from Colonel Ernst what his plan would be, now, for making that foundation tight down through this depth of 258 feet? Colonel ERNST. Well, Senator, the claim is that it is practically tight now. What I said as to Bohio is strictly true. It did not apply only to the method which was suggested in that plan, but it applied to various other methods which might be used. If this lower 50 feet should by some wonder of nature discharge a large volume of water, it would be possible to reach that by this pumping process; but I do not believe it is going to be needed at all. There is this blanket, 200 feet thick, of impermeable material, covering it, and the amount of water that can get out under there is infinitesimal. That is what I think about it. I think that it will undoubtedly hold water. Senator MORGAN. The higher you raise the head of water the more danger there is of its finding its way through permeable material at the bottom of the dam? Colonel ERNST. Oh, yes; certainly. Senator MORGAN. That is a danger that you can not take care of if the water goes through at all. You can not take care of it and reduce it to a mere seep or leak or percolation by building on top of it? Colonel ERNST. I do not think the weight added on top will make very much difference about it. I think it will be impermeable with out it; practically impermeable. The amount of water that can leak through there is so small that it is not going to be appreciable at all. Senator MORGAN. I do not look at it in the view of the wastage of the water, but the danger of the structure being undermined and sinking and breaking away. Colonel ERNST. I do not think it is possible to get up velocity in there that would move any material at all. I think that is utterly impossible any more than the sandstone filter that they use in Spanish countries is worn by the water that flows through it. The velocity is so small that it can not have any wearing effect or transporting effect. Senator MORGAN. No borings that have passed across the axis of the Gatun dam have actually reached rock foundation, unless you call this indurated clay rock? Colonel ERNST. We call that rock. Senator MORGAN. But you have not reached any such rock foundation as you found at Bohio? That was live rock-sure enough rock? Colonel ERNST. I do not remember about that. It turned out that we did not get rock at all there, you know. My impression is that it was pretty much the same thing-hard material; a pipe would not sink any farther. Senator MORGAN. But it still has not been hard enough to resist the action of water washing these great gulches out through it on each side around that island? Colonel ERNST. That is true. Senator MORGAN. If that is true, then it is not hard enough to resist a great current of water. But the rock at the bottom of the Bohio dam was hard enough to resist any pressure of water? Colonel ERNST. I do not know about the relative hardness, Senator, at all. Senator MORGAN. You have not seen Mr. Wallace's borings? Senator MORGAN. Did he get into the rock after he passed through those bowlders that stopped your augurs? Colonel ERNST. I believe he did; yes. Senator MORGAN. Do not those borings indicate that that is tough, hard rock? Colonel ERNST. I do not think it is what you would call very hard rock. It is rock, but I do not think it is very hard rock. Senator MORGAN. Is it basalt? Colonel ERNST. No, sir; there is no basalt there. Senator MORGAN. What would be the classification of it? Colonel ERNST. I think it is a sandstone. They call it "Gamboa grit;" the French called it that, I believe. Senator MORGAN. It is something a little peculiar to the location, then? Colonel ERNST. Yes, sir. Senator MORGAN. A conglomerate, probably, formed by Colonel ERNST. I presume it is the same that is in that Bohio quarry. It looks like sandstone, and I believe it is. It is very soft at first, but hardens. They build their bridge piers out of it. It makes fairly good building stone. Senator MORGAN. Colonel, you have been a long time examining this Isthmus? Colonel ERNST. Yes, sir. Senator MORGAN. You have probably given as much personal attention to it as any man that has ever been there, have you not? Colonel ERNST. Perhaps so. Senator MORGAN. Do you know of the existence of any extinct volcanoes on the Isthmus out in the vicinity of the line of the canal? Colonel ERNST. No, sir; I do not know of any? Senator MORGAN. Down below Ancon Hill and out in that direction? Colonel ERNST. I do not know of any. They may be there, but I do not know of any. Senator MORGAN. My inquiry is based upon the fact Bunau-Varilla denies that there ever were any, and some of the witnesses on a former occasion before this committee swore that they had been down in them. I did not know but what you might have been? Colonel ERNST. No, sir; I never have been. Senator MORGAN. That is a difficult country to find anything in, is it not? It is covered with the chaparral, or a growth there, so that it is very difficult to find anything, is it not? Colonel ERNST. Very. Senator MORGAN. It is difficult even to find a great vortex in the ground, or a hill that rises above the ground, is it not? Colonel ERNST. Very difficult. Senator MORGAN. So that if a man testifies that he has seen extinct volcanoes there and been down in them, he would be more apt to know than a man that had passed by and did not see them? Colonel ERNST. Oh, yes, sir. Senator MORGAN. What difficulties are there, if there are any, within your knowledge, of an engineering sort or a physical sort in dredging a sea-level canal from the 40-foot contour through the Bay of Limon up as far as Gamboa? Colonel ERNST. Only the difficulties of quantity and cost and of time. That is all. Senator MORGAN. As to the cost, I suppose the transportation of the soil would be one of the big elements of cost? Colonel ERNST. Yes, sir. Senator MORGAN. Would not that be as cheap or cheaper by being carried out on barges to the sea and dumped into the sea wherever you might want to put it than it would be to haul it out on railroad tracks? Colonel ERNST. The actual transportation of any particular cubic yard would be; yes, sir. Senator MORGAN. The unit of cost of transportation of the material that you take out of a sea-level canal would be lower for transportation than it would be taken out dry and hauled off on a railroad? Colonel ERNST. Yes; the idea I had in mind was that you would have a very narrow point of attack if you were attempting to use water transportation. You could only use water transportation over such portions of the canal as had water in it. Senator MORGAN. If you came in from the 40-foot contour, your dredges would be followed by the depth of water, which would be 40 feet deep below sea level? Colonel ERNST. Certainly, but you would be attacking just the front edge. Senator MORGAN. That would be true on both sides of the Isthmus? Colonel ERNST. Yes. |